The AO Platform, My Analysis

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19 Aug 2012 12:31 #10284 by Feather
The AO Platform, My Analysis was created by Feather
I see that we got shut down over on RL because the voting has started, but I also see that the voting will apparently go on for a while, and because the poling place is at least 200 feet from here (is it?), I will keep campaigning. I thought I had better do this analysis as a seperate thread from the one I started about voting for James, mainly because I don't want any of my hopefully objective, but somewhat negative, analysis to reflect in any way on James, because he didn't put me up to it and I didn't even consult with him about it.

I see by Andrew's opening platform about his candidacy for President that he layed out a pretty certain platform consisting of mainly three planks, Value, Communication, and Clarity of Vision. Then he concluded with a personal note which explains his limitations in ability to do this job, which I kind of take as pulling some of the nails out to the platform.

I'm going to do this in three or four different posts because it is kind of long, so the first plank I will address in about Value.

VALUE=What an I getting?

I pay $30 and get 1 or 2 t-shirts plus some other trinkets. Actually the t-shirt is worth about $20 and the other "trinkets" are easily worth more than the other $10. Then there is the postage for that which is mailed.

THE CHANGE? Andrew will "have" the Vendors give OC Members a discount! Andrew says that Roger has already embraced this idea, but I wonder if and how it applies.

I suspect Andrew had not thought this through. First of all what is the mechanism to "have" a vendor give the member discount? I suppose it is to simply ask. If Roger has already embraced the concept it would appear that the mechanism has already been activated, so where does the change come in? Too, the result is what it already is.

On the other hand even is we suppose that there is a new and better mechanism to impose additional Vendors to "embrace" this concept, my though process suggests the following:

1. What might the Vendor expect in return for a discount to OC Members? Andrew suggests that there are only 400 of us, and we are already dealing with the existing Vendors, so how is it attractive for one more of the Vendors to impose a discount in hopes of attracting more OC Members than he already has?

2. If the mechanism can be imposed on all or most of even the major Vendors (the big 3, or is it more?) then how does the discount attract business away from one vendor to another? The same discount woud be all around. Maybe Andrew percieves that the discount will work more like a price war in the old days with the gas station. Not likely.

3. I suspect that the Vendors have already set their pricing in such a way as to make their efforts barely worth while keeping their margins at a minimum given that the overall 928 market is very small and somewhat more conservative than say the Ferrari group or even the later 911 crowd. There simply isn't likely to be any fat to be trimmed off for a discount.

4. Finally, how would such a discount program even be administered? How does the Vendor know who is an OC Member? "Take my word for it?" Then everyone gets the discount; so the discount simply raises the prices to have the end discounted result put the vendor where he was to start with.

In short, Andrew offers nothing of additional value, at least that I can see in his program.

I said it on RL that I do not intend this to be personal because I think Andrew is a great guy. However, I have a lot of respect for all of the members of this club and I am very concerned that Andrew is far from ready to become its leader.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 13:01 #10286 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
The Next Plank is COMMUNICATION

Andrew proposes to improve the visibility and communication of the OC. It has been void over the past few years, according to him.

THE CHANGE(S)?

1. A regular listing of upcoming events.
2. A tech corner.
3. Listing of "Partner Vendor" specials.
4. All in email form.
5. Apparently publish something to all 928 people to attract members.
6. Better Marketing Effort.

All brought about by something called "regular Communication."

Andrew admits that Stan Shaw had made these efforts in the past without success, so it has to change. Aside from the list of changes proposed, as shown above, all of which is firmly in place so far as I can tell, Andrew proposes nothing.

This membership concern that Andrew expresses about having 400 members (down from his number of "1600 unique members" --which I feel certain is a pure fiction) reminds me of a time when I was the President and Chairman of the Board of an organization very similar to the 928 OC. It was my particular airplane type-club. We had about 900 members, also worldwide, and the Board suggested that we should or could have many more. Their thoughts were in the right place, much as Andrew's, and I found that there were about 1200 of our airplane types then registeredd with the FAA. I obtained the list and sorted out all of 400 or so that were not members ( I know, the math does not look right, but our foreign members were not registered with the FAA).

Then I drafted a nice letter to each of the non-members which was a form letter in substance, of course, but which was individually addressed and which I personally signed, and I mailed each one. From all of that effort we actually got only ONE new member, a fellow in Missouri, as I recall, who said he had heard of us but didn't have our contact information until he got my letter. That was before the internet, or at least our use of it in the Club.

I don't klnow what more I might have been able to do at that time save looking up many telephone numbers and spending hours of time and a lot of money making long distance calls. However, that too was a purely volunteer organization and I too got paid nothing for my personal efforts, so that was the last membership drive we tried.

I wonder if that is what Andrew means about Stan Shaw's efforts that were not successful. Andrew says about this that if you want different results, something must change. However, sometimes different results are simply not available. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, to adopt an old saying. Andrew has not shown that a different result is available nor how he might attain it.

Therefor, Andrew proposes actually doing everything that the Club is already doing, but he will want to call it change; and then, as with President Obama, he will have to have a good enough reason why nothing different actually happenes.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 13:19 #10287 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
The final Plank in Andrew's Platform is called "CLARITY OF VISION."

Andrew has, in my opinion, only one worthwhile suggestion here and that is an annual financial report, which I actually suspect is already available somewhere to interested members. If you are not a member it is none of you business, so it might be difficult to disseminate.

Aside from that an annual statement about the "vision and focus" of the club should be nothing more that a restatement of the mission of the club, and that doesn't change annually.

A report about the success or failure of a given OC event or OC sponsored (in part) event sounds nice except there is simply no measure for it. The financial aspect of an event is or would be in the annual financial report; but how do you say something like "OCIC 2012 was a total or even moderate failure because only 60 or 70 cars showed up out of the 400 that should have been there?" What if only 25 928s showed up. Would that have been a failure?

The other activities of the Club, such as the tool program, don't seem to need a report. I suppose one could report on the tool lending program that we loaned such and such a tool or tools this many times and only lost one or more of them in shipping. The cost of replacement would be in the financial report. Too, we have helped so many stranded drivers this year, and/or we have answered this many tech question this year. Then we could say that we are going to increase these numbers for the next year? That is our vision and fucus.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 13:45 #10288 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Finally, I am perhaps most concerned about Andrew's Personal note.

It comes across very clearly to me that Andrew is not likely to be able to do even what the Presidency currently requires, much less whatever it is he hopes to add on to "clear the vision," "communicate," and increase the "value" to members. He himself does not, by his own admission, have the time, and his lack of insight about this kind of volunteer organization is causing him a delusion about everyone else stepping up or jumping in and doing it all or most of it for him (and for the Club), when he has actually figured out whatever it might be. This kind of organization is never run by the body of membership, but only by those very few, like Stan and James and the others who have stepped up to take the reins.

In fact, if Andrew had any basis for his hope to delgate all or any of his "change" whatever it might be, why hasn't he been in there taking charge of anything that he has found that can or needs to be done before now??????

If Andrew had seen before the previous election two years ago that change was needed, what, if anything has he done in the meantime to bring any of it about merely as one of those many "talented and motivated people in our club that we need to engage and leverage" to put it in his words."

What has Andrew done to sponsor and OC Event, or any event that could be partly sponsored by OC? (I haven't paid close attention to this, so there may in fact be something I am missing.)

What has Andrew done to initiate his program for additional Vendor Discounts. Has he actually even asked any Vendor? I'm a small-time vendor, and I don't think he has asked me.

What has Andrew done to obtain the data and compile any kind of report on OCIC 2102, success or failure? Maybe it wasn't his place, but did he even ask to be able to do it?

What has andrew done to initiate any kind of additional advertising for the Club with any of the sites he is now proposing.

Oddly, I think Andrew hasn't done any or much of this because he is only a member and not in charge of it all. However, now he wants to be in charge of it all, but then have those talented and motivated members do much of it.

Actually I have been there and done that, and my experience tells me that there is much more time involved in delegating given tasks and then spending the volumns of time it takes to monitor and manage the task, and finally end up doing it yourself.

In conclusioin, if Andrew doesn't have the time to do what is altready being done and to add whatever he might come up with to put on his planks, he is not the right guy for this Presidency. In fact it appears to me that he is really not in a position to simply step in and keep what we already have going.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 16:40 #10292 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Malcolm, I think it will be interesting to see if the by-laws actually preclude it.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 16:55 #10294 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Jerry,

While I know that you mean well with the opinions you've presented in this thread, I worry that this kind of thread may gather the wrong kind of attention seeing as how politics bring out the passion in everyone. At this point in the process, perhaps we should all try to keep our feelings on these elections private. Those who are voting should be well informed by now. If not, there is plenty out there for their reading pleasure already in threads both here and on Rennlist.

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19 Aug 2012 17:23 #10295 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Hi Austin. Thanks for your input on this election matter. I posted what I had to say about this election in this thread because I couldn't find much of value about the relative positions of the candidates on Rennlist and almost nothing about it all here, save what I had posted myself.

I think you are right, now, that the voters may be well advised about the election, but I don't think that occured until today.

I have had my say, so let's see how it comes out.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 18:00 #10296 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
I have realized that my opinion may or may not be the majority view by our membership. I find that confusing. The discussion on Rennlist made this clear to me. I can't understand why so many of our members decline to contribute to the forums we, as a club, own & operate here. I have nothing against Rennlist. Personally, I'm not a member. I just feel those that make so much time to contribute to Rennlist should have the same interest in this club and our forums; especially if they're a member. Not just during an election. I think it's sad actually. I just hope our club survives the politics and differences. That's why I worry about us, as individuals, continuing these posts that invite political debate. I don't feel that the conversation on Rennlist was necessarily all negative. I think the moderators there chose a good time to close the door on it though.

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19 Aug 2012 18:41 #10297 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
"That's why I worry about us, as indiuviduals, continuing these posts that invite politican debate."

Austin, I have to wonder just what it is you think this General Discussion Forum is about. I just looked up the definition of "discuss" and it is "to talk or write about; consider the pros and cons of--." If we are somehow not to be considering the pros and cons of the ongoing election, I wonder just what it is we are to be discussing and in what manner.

I have posted a particular view of the cons of the AO platform and the pros of the James Morrison candidacy for the Presidency of this Club. AO has a full opportunity to step up and explain both where I am wrong about his platform; and James can also step up and say that I am right or wrong about him. I don't expect James to do so; but I fully expect Andrew to do so, if there really is anything that he can actually say.

I am at a loss about just what it is you are afraid of in all of this. If you can explain just how this kind of discussion can be had without expressing anything that might be controversial, I would be interested in hearing it.

Jerry Feather

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19 Aug 2012 19:31 #10299 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Jerry,
did nt realise the bylaws permitted continued campaigning after the voting has started.

Ill seak advise from the board..........Malcolm

Malcolm,

All members have access to the bylaws. The are available at 928oc.org/pdf/928OC_Bylaws_II.pdf That link is available if you search the forum for bylaws or if you used the navigation from the website.

Like all campaigns in the United States, campaigning goes right through election day.

For clarity: We don't tolerate personal attacks in these forums.

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19 Aug 2012 19:33 #10300 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Two years ago Andrew and several of his supporters were quite verbose in their denigration of Stan and Stan still won by 10% of the vote (though the numbers were small) and the club survived. I suspect that will be the case this time as well. Regardless of the outcome.

As for Jerry's thoughts, ideas and posts, I can't believe that a club would deny someone the right to express their opinion publicly. I'd say that regardless of who he was talking about. If you agree with his opinion then fine, if you disagree fine... I can't imagine this would be addressed in the by-laws. I suppose if voting was held on ONE DAY then you might make a rule that all "political" posts would be eliminated other than the platforms of those on the ballots, X number of days before the polls open, but since we have voting over many days (or weeks) that just does not hold water here.

I suspect there are more than a few new NON-RL members who have yet to vote by the way, and may not vote at all, but Stan (I guess) would know more about how many have voted or that we might expect to see vote.

I have realized that my opinion may or may not be the majority view by our membership. I find that confusing. The discussion on Rennlist made this clear to me. I can't understand why so many of our members decline to contribute to the forums we, as a club, own & operate here. I have nothing against Rennlist. Personally, I'm not a member. I just feel those that make so much time to contribute to Rennlist should have the same interest in this club and our forums; especially if they're a member. Not just during an election. I think it's sad actually. I just hope our club survives the politics and differences. That's why I worry about us, as individuals, continuing these posts that invite political debate. I don't feel that the conversation on Rennlist was necessarily all negative. I think the moderators there chose a good time to close the door on it though.


James
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84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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19 Aug 2012 19:36 #10301 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Jerry,

Don't misunderstand me. As a moderator of this forum, I would hope that I knew what should and shouldn't qualify for discussion. Your thread fits the bill. I just meant to suggest to you and others that beginning new threads devoted to either endorse or dismiss a candidate may not be a trend worth continuing. Instead, I recommend rephrasing your comments as questions for the candidates. Take that for what it is; merely a recommendation.

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19 Aug 2012 19:48 #10303 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Two years ago Andrew and several of his supporters were quite verbose in their denigration of Stan and Stan still won by 10% of the vote (though the numbers were small) and the club survived. I suspect that will be the case this time as well. Regardless of the outcome.

As for Jerry's thoughts, ideas and posts, I can't believe that a club would deny someone the right to express their opinion publicly. I'd say that regardless of who he was talking about. If you agree with his opinion then fine, if you disagree fine... I can't imagine this would be addressed in the by-laws. I suppose if voting was held on ONE DAY then you might make a rule that all "political" posts would be eliminated other than the platforms of those on the ballots, X number of days before the polls open, but since we have voting over many days (or weeks) that just does not hold water here.

I suspect there are more than a few new NON-RL members who have yet to vote by the way, and may not vote at all, but Stan (I guess) would know more about how many have voted or that we might expect to see vote.


Hey James. Don't worry.. I'm not pulling the plug on anyone here. Just a recommendation. :D

I support free speech, my friend. By the way, I remember the last election process. I don't understand Andrew or many of his supporters. I just feel that there might be a better way to invite them into the discussion. That's just my $.02

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19 Aug 2012 20:05 #10304 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

I have realized that my opinion may or may not be the majority view by our membership. I find that confusing. The discussion on Rennlist made this clear to me. I can't understand why so many of our members decline to contribute to the forums we, as a club, own & operate here. I have nothing against Rennlist. Personally, I'm not a member. I just feel those that make so much time to contribute to Rennlist should have the same interest in this club and our forums; especially if they're a member. Not just during an election. I think it's sad actually. I just hope our club survives the politics and differences. That's why I worry about us, as individuals, continuing these posts that invite political debate. I don't feel that the conversation on Rennlist was necessarily all negative. I think the moderators there chose a good time to close the door on it though.


Keep in mind, quite a few of those who posted on Rennlist specifically stated they were not members. I wouldn't be surprised if many were the same with the same complaints two years ago. I just find it so ironic that what they ask for exists; communication, programs and a mission. They choose not to come to here, so they are ignorant, and apparently quite proud of that.

Probably most telling is when the critics claim they 928 OC needs change. Why? Because 40% growth in 2 years isn't enough?

There was a quite telling post at Rennlist before they closed the topic. One person questioned why the club had $15k and wasn't spending it. All they think is that there is a pile of money to take, they know nothing of how long it takes to raise it, or what efforts and costs it takes to keep members signing up and renewing. But they sure know they can spend they money, and then it will be over.

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19 Aug 2012 20:49 #10310 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

...but Stan (I guess) would know more about how many have voted or that we might expect to see vote.


I would not expect to be provide any voting details until after the time period specified has expired and all votes have been audited by the election committee and the board has been advised of the results. That is what I have done in the past.

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20 Aug 2012 00:22 #10313 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
^^^^
Cool! Good info. I didn't know how that went or who (if anyone) was following the results as they came in...sort of real time if you will.

James
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84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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21 Aug 2012 13:54 #10342 by Andrew Olson
Replied by Andrew Olson on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Hi Jerry,

I appreciate your analysis, but I think you're wrong.

VALUE:
...
In short, Andrew offers nothing of additional value, at least that I can see in his program.


This is your judgement.

From many of the non-members and former members, they have personally told me they don't see a value in becoming or remaining a 928OC member. That needs to change if we want to retain and attract new membership. Any organization that cannot clearly articulate a strong value proposition for its customer/membership will lose relevance quickly.

You clearly see value, and that is why you are a member. Not everyone does. All the questions you posed are valid questions. I've thought through most if not all of them and then some. Vendor discounts are a tough, for sure, but I've thought through it and I think i have a plan for implementing it. If I am elected, I will certainly reach out to you to gauge your company's interest in supporting the 928OC.

COMMUNICATION
...
Therefor, Andrew proposes actually doing everything that the Club is already doing, but he will want to call it change; and then, as with President Obama, he will have to have a good enough reason why nothing different actually happenes.


You are way off on this. The only communication I get from the 928OC is when there is an election or it's time for me to renew my membership. I think the 928 OC needs to have regular communication. If we don't get in the face of the membership it's too easy for us to become irrelevant. I propose using a system like Constant Contact and posts to RL to maintain a communications campaign. Nothing fancy. Maybe a one-pager. I already write a regular 928-related column for our local PCA publication that can be re-purposed for this. The main thing to increase the level of communication - promote events, 928OC vendors, etc. I want to stay in the minds of its members and potential members.

CLARITY OF VISION.
...
The other activities of the Club, such as the tool program, don't seem to need a report.


I disagree. I think those are the kinds of things we should be reporting in addition to finances. If tools don't get loaned out, should we continue supporting that effort? How about the number of new members. How about renewals? How about the number of events sponsored? And how about any new initiatives being undertaken by the club to fulfill its mission?

A State of the Club address is not unreasonable from its president. Is it?

Finally, I am perhaps most concerned about Andrew's Personal note.

... if Andrew doesn't have the time to do what is altready being done and to add whatever he might come up with to put on his planks, he is not the right guy for this Presidency. In fact it appears to me that he is really not in a position to simply step in and keep what we already have going.

Jerry Feather


Yep time is going to be tight. No question. I carefully thought about this before accepting the nomination. And that's an important point... I was asked by several people this time to run for OC president. I did not approach them. I was not planning on it this time 'round, until I was asked.

There was a comment that implied I renewed my membership in order to be in a position to run for this post. Not true. I renewed so I could go to OCIC as a member (and frankly I had forgotten about it).

Getting back to bandwidth, I carefully weighed the demands on my personal time and I am quite certain I can balance these additional demands. Is it possible that I have underestimated things? Sure. But I have a lot of people willing to help should I need it, but I am prepared to put in the time.

As I said previously though, we need to work smarter, not harder. We need to do things that add the greatest value for the membership and communicate that back to the club.

Please keep in mind, this is a small niche car club. Let's keep the personal politics (like comments about Obama or Romney) out of it. One's political affiliation should not impact our love of these cars. Your implied statement that my presidency will be akin to an Obama presidency has no basis in this discussion and is, frankly, way off base, rude, and inflammatory!

I have had my say, so let's see how it comes out.

Jerry Feather


I've had my say too. No matter the outcome, friends?

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21 Aug 2012 14:22 #10343 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

From many of the non-members and former members, they have personally told me they don't see a value in becoming or remaining a 928OC member. That needs to change if we want to retain and attract new membership. Any organization that cannot clearly articulate a strong value proposition for its customer/membership will lose relevance quickly.


Sounds like you intend to put to shame the membership increase of 40% in the last 2 years. What is you intent? Are you going to promise members that you will double or triple the size of the 928 OC? Currently there are over 600 members.

The only communication I get from the 928OC is when there is an election or it's time for me to renew my membership. I think the 928 OC needs to have regular communication. If we don't get in the face of the membership it's too easy for us to become irrelevant. I propose using a system like Constant Contact and posts to RL to maintain a communications campaign. Nothing fancy. Maybe a one-pager. I already write a regular 928-related column for our local PCA publication that can be re-purposed for this. The main thing to increase the level of communication - promote events, 928OC vendors, etc. I want to stay in the minds of its members and potential members.


So the key difference is you think by posting in Rennlist, rather than where all this information is currently posted, the 928 OC forums, you will reach members better. Don't you think that is upside down? Like speaking at a Chamber of Commerce event to communicate to the Rotarians... Why not just continue to promote this forum where 365 of the members are registered now. You can't possible know how many 928 OC members are registered at Rennlist, as Rennlist isn't tracking it for you. So even if you communicate there you will have no idea if the members are hearing you. Not to mention if Internet Brands changes its policies about Rennlist, the 928 OC members could be required to pay to see your communications. That means the cost of 928 OC membership jumps by quite a bit, so the value you provide will need to go up.

Just to clarify for the members, will the 928 OC forums be abandoned? Rennlist does not have a 928 Technical Library, a 928 Roadside Assistance Forum or a Members Profile forum. Will you abandon them all? While it is quite late in the game to be laying out your intentions now. I have asked before, and I *am* a member, but you have not answered...

Seems like your vision is that the 928 OC to be a subset of Rennlist. Do you even know how many 928 OC members do not like the atmosphere at Rennlist? The belittling of new posters, the inside jokes, not to mention the 928 OC haters that show disdain for the 928 OC even though they haven't visited the site for many years.

We do know you talk about all the programs the 928 OC should provide, that are already in place, so clearly you are at least out of touch with a club you claim to be ready to lead.

Here is a simple question for you. How much of the accumulated members money will be spent on a national event that 90+% of them will never attend?

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21 Aug 2012 14:53 #10346 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Sounds like you intend to put to shame the membership increase of 40% in the last 2 years. What is you intent? Are you going to promise members that you will double or triple the size of the 928 OC? Currently there are over 600 members.



So the key difference is you think by posting in Rennlist, rather than where all this information is currently posted, the 928 OC forums, you will reach members better. Don't you think that is upside down? Like speaking at a Chamber of Commerce event to communicate to the Rotarians... Why not just continue to promote this forum where 365 of the members are registered now. You can't possible know how many 928 OC members are registered at Rennlist, as Rennlist isn't tracking it for you. So even if you communicate there you will have no idea if the members are hearing you. Not to mention if Internet Brands changes its policies about Rennlist, the 928 OC members could be required to pay to see your communications. That means the cost of 928 OC membership jumps by quite a bit, so the value you provide will need to go up.

Just to clarify for the members, will the 928 OC forums be abandoned? Rennlist does not have a 928 Technical Library, a 928 Roadside Assistance Forum or a Members Profile forum. Will you abandon them all? While it is quite late in the game to be laying out your intentions now. I have asked before, and I *am* a member, but you have not answered...

Seems like your vision is that the 928 OC to be a subset of Rennlist. Do you even know how many 928 OC members do not like the atmosphere at Rennlist? The belittling of new posters, the inside jokes, not to mention the 928 OC haters that show disdain for the 928 OC even though they haven't visited the site for many years.

We do know you talk about all the programs the 928 OC should provide, that are already in place, so clearly you are at least out of touch with a club you claim to be ready to lead.

Here is a simple question for you. How much of the accumulated members money will be spent on a national event that 90+% of them will never attend?


Andrew, there are some very valid questions here that I hope to see your response on. :)

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21 Aug 2012 16:53 #10349 by Feather
Replied by Feather on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Andrew, FRIENDS for SURE! Our friendship was never in question in all of this, and I feel sure that is true with just about all of the other interested members.

VERY Sincerely, Jerry Feather

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21 Aug 2012 17:14 #10351 by Hacker-Pschorr
Replied by Hacker-Pschorr on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

So the key difference is you think by posting in Rennlist, rather than where all this information is currently posted, the 928 OC forums, you will reach members better. Don't you think that is upside down? Like speaking at a Chamber of Commerce event to communicate to the Rotarians... Why not just continue to promote this forum where 365 of the members are registered now.

The Chamber of Commerce and Rotary are two totally separate entities. I find it very sad that you see the OC as being that far and removed from Rennlist / Pelican / Reutterwerks. If Andrew was suggesting we should scour the Corvette and Ferrari forums to aid in club membership, you would have a point.

IMO the various 928 forums and the OC should be working hand and hand. Not a mentality of "us" or "them" as you portray in this post.

You make it sound like all OC business is banned from being talked about or mentioned on Rennlist or other forums.
I don't care about what happened in the past, I hope it's clear that mentality is not the current Rennlist. At least not as long as I have something to say about it.

You can't possible know how many 928 OC members are registered at Rennlist, as Rennlist isn't tracking it for you. So even if you communicate there you will have no idea if the members are hearing you.

This is true, but it's a numbers game. On any given day a post on Rennlist / Pelican / Reutterweks will be seen by more 928 owners than the OC.

IMO this is all a moot point since I don't see anywhere that Andrew stated he would skip posting or updating the OC forum.

Not to mention if Internet Brands changes its policies about Rennlist, the 928 OC members could be required to pay to see your communications. That means the cost of 928 OC membership jumps by quite a bit, so the value you provide will need to go up.

If the 928 forum on Rennlist goes to "pay only" I'll be the first to walk away.

Rennlist does not have a 928 Technical Library

It doesn't?

forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-134/

a 928 Roadside Assistance Forum

No, but starting a "I need help" thread works for most:
forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum...ed-road-america.html

Members Profile forum

Each Rennlist member can create their own profile, no it's not all lumped together in a forum, that would be rather cumbersome to navigate given the number of members.

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21 Aug 2012 19:17 #10354 by polecat702
Replied by polecat702 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
I'm a member of this club, and also a paid subscriber of Rennlist too.
I joined the owner's club to attend and support the club and it's events.

I'm a paid subscriber to RL, cause that's where all the technical information is, and when you have a problem, answers come back quick.

I think my money is well spent on both. And both are a damn good value!


When will we know who won the election? The sooner this is over and the bickering stops the better.

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21 Aug 2012 19:25 #10355 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

The Chamber of Commerce and Rotary are two totally separate entities. I find it very sad that you see the OC as being that far and removed from Rennlist / Pelican / Reutterwerks. If Andrew was suggesting we should scour the Corvette and Ferrari forums to aid in club membership, you would have a point.

IMO the various 928 forums and the OC should be working hand and hand. Not a mentality of "us" or "them" as you portray in this post.

You make it sound like all OC business is banned from being talked about or mentioned on Rennlist or other forums.
I don't care about what happened in the past, I hope it's clear that mentality is not the current Rennlist. At least not as long as I have something to say about it.


Eric,

You miss the key point, Andrew was talking about how he would communicate to members, not how he would be seeking new members.

Communicating to Rennlist about 928 OC business, rather than in the 928 OC community is *exactly* what Randy advised was not acceptable. I started the 928 OC forum for that very reason, because the 928 OC business was forbidden by the moderator of Rennlist. I am sorry that you have forgotten or overlooked that, but you are welcome to scour the Rennlist archives, and you will find it.

Ironic that 928 OC business was effectively banned from Rennlist by the primary moderator for many many years, and you imply I am being divisive. I think what is clear is the Rennlist 928 community is concerned about what is happening in the 928 OC forums and wants to stop it. Really quite sad.

All you need to do is look at Randy's posts in Andrew's announcement on Rennlist and the evidence of his issues are clear.

Just as I had to raise the 928 OC out of the ashes of a bad reputation, you are left with the issues Randy raised. To clarify once again, he made it very clear that 928 OC business discussion was *not* welcome there, in contradiction to the new policy you are now stating.

The 928 OC members now have a forum and it is quite sufficient for their needs, if Andrew wins and shuts it down, it will be a lost to the community. After all some competition is healthy. We have always been quite welcoming of the Rennlist members, we just require a more adult attitude than is too often seen at Rennlist. The members there are welcome to that approach, it is their choice, and I am not saying it is wrong for them.

This is true, but it's a numbers game. On any given day a post on Rennlist / Pelican / Reutterweks will be seen by more 928 owners than the OC.

IMO this is all a moot point since I don't see anywhere that Andrew stated he would skip posting or updating the OC forum.


Nor has Andrew responded to my multiple requests that he explain which programs he will, or will not retain. Nor has he explained who will administrate them. Recently Roger of 928SRUS advised that his staff can provide needed support. Hopefully Andrew recognizes what a huge conflict this would be. The club has always operated completely on a volunteer basis, since I have been president, to ensure there is no bias. Hopefully Andrew recognizes that if 928SRUS is doing the administrative work, there won't be any competing vendors that are likely to want anything to do with the club, due to a perceived bias.

If the 928 forum on Rennlist goes to "pay only" I'll be the first to walk away.


After the steadily developing 928 OC forum has been left behind, where are you walking to, to start all over? That has happened before. That is a *key* purposes to the 928 OC, that the content is owned by the members, so it can not be taken away.

I have yet to hear from anyone that supports Andrew, or Andrew himself, that provides any indication there was *any* thought about this. It sounds like a discussion at OCIC that including drinking could result in such rash behavior. As I have said many times, it is up to the members. My key point is to make the away of the facts, and Andrew/team have provided nothing to indicate my deductions are incorrect.

It doesn't?

forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-134/


Sorry, there is no organization to this. It is not a technical library, it is a gathering of posts of perceived value. If you look at the 928 OC Technical Library you will find a logical order, so that someone seeking help can find it quickly. Using search would be a secondary option.

Of course it is also *owned* by Internet Brands. If they take it offline for any reason, you have nothing.

No, but starting a "I need help" thread works for most:
forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum...ed-road-america.html

Each Rennlist member can create their own profile, no it's not all lumped together in a forum, that would be rather cumbersome to navigate given the number of members.


Sorry, neither of this compare to the organization of what the 928 OC has. They are great attempts by the Rennlist members to work in an environment that they have limited control of.

In short, the Rennlist examples show the value of the 928 OC forum, as the 928 OC members can organize and improve in any fashion they choose, as they *own* the data.

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21 Aug 2012 19:36 #10357 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

When will we know who won the election? The sooner this is over and the bickering stops the better.


I don't see how my stating facts is bickering. So long as there are those who make false statements I will contest them. I haven't read a post contrary to mine from anyone that has been involved of the administration of the club in the last 9 years. Many, if not all, are from people who aren't even familiar with the 928 OC forums, and they acknowledge it.....

That information is stated on the ballot: 928oc.org/Board_Nomination_Election_Process_and_Schedule.htm

9/16/12

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21 Aug 2012 20:06 #10359 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Totally agree with you... I love both of them. OC Forum seems to be a bit friendlier and less contentious and now has all the same technical write ups in one place that you can find all over (well, we may be missing a few, but we have most of them stored right here). There are more folks routinely over on RL and you can get an answer a bit faster over there, but it is getting better here every day which is nice.

I don't know when voting closes actually...I suspect Stan has answered this below (errr...above this post, below yours) and I just have not read it yet. I know the new officers are not installed till 9/28 right? I always thought 9/28 was the voting day, but clearly I missed the memo on that one! LOL! :D

I'm a member of this club, and also a paid subscriber of Rennlist too.
I joined the owner's club to attend and support the club and it's events.

I'm a paid subscriber to RL, cause that's where all the technical information is, and when you have a problem, answers come back quick.

I think my money is well spent on both. And both are a damn good value!


When will we know who won the election? The sooner this is over and the bickering stops the better.


James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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21 Aug 2012 22:29 #10361 by Andrew Olson
Replied by Andrew Olson on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Sounds like you intend to put to shame the membership increase of 40% in the last 2 years. What is you intent? Are you going to promise members that you will double or triple the size of the 928 OC? Currently there are over 600 members.



So the key difference is you think by posting in Rennlist, rather than where all this information is currently posted, the 928 OC forums, you will reach members better. Don't you think that is upside down? Like speaking at a Chamber of Commerce event to communicate to the Rotarians... Why not just continue to promote this forum where 365 of the members are registered now. You can't possible know how many 928 OC members are registered at Rennlist, as Rennlist isn't tracking it for you. So even if you communicate there you will have no idea if the members are hearing you. Not to mention if Internet Brands changes its policies about Rennlist, the 928 OC members could be required to pay to see your communications. That means the cost of 928 OC membership jumps by quite a bit, so the value you provide will need to go up.

Just to clarify for the members, will the 928 OC forums be abandoned? Rennlist does not have a 928 Technical Library, a 928 Roadside Assistance Forum or a Members Profile forum. Will you abandon them all? While it is quite late in the game to be laying out your intentions now. I have asked before, and I *am* a member, but you have not answered...

Seems like your vision is that the 928 OC to be a subset of Rennlist. Do you even know how many 928 OC members do not like the atmosphere at Rennlist? The belittling of new posters, the inside jokes, not to mention the 928 OC haters that show disdain for the 928 OC even though they haven't visited the site for many years.

We do know you talk about all the programs the 928 OC should provide, that are already in place, so clearly you are at least out of touch with a club you claim to be ready to lead.

Here is a simple question for you. How much of the accumulated members money will be spent on a national event that 90+% of them will never attend?


Stan,

I am not discounting the work You, James and other shave done over the past couple years. Frankly I'm glad to see membership is up. That's a good thing.

And no, I'm not suggesting we abandon anything here. Never said I would. But if you want to attract new people, you have to go to where the audience is. The audience is not here. Thats not a knock on you, it's jus reality. Someday, people may begin to flock here, but until then we need to take the message to the streets. That's a pretty simple concept, really.

I've never suggested the OC be a subset of RL. I think both can and should exist. The only thing I suggested was that we promote the OC on RL as it has the largest single group of 928 owners in one area. I think DR was the one who suggested the irrelevance of this place and the website.

You suggest that I am out of touch with the benefits the club offers. Why is that? Shouldn't the club, especially given its mission to help me get the most out of my 928, give some level of active communication to its members? Saying that it's posted on a website that frankly very few go to, is like saying you put up a billboard in the middle of the Arizona dessert. Sure it's there but is anyone going to read it?

And to answer your question about how much money we should spend on OCIC and other regional events? I don't know. Maybe $10k, maybe nothing, maybe more, maybe less. How much should we spend on tools that 90% of the members will not use? What about trinkets? What about the website and hosting? What was the budget last year? What is the expected revenue for this year? Is it part of the mission?

I don't expect you to answer those questions, but these are the things I will be thinking about as we consider allocating the roughly $20k in annual dues the club receives and thinking about any reserves the club has.

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21 Aug 2012 23:08 #10363 by Mclovin
Replied by Mclovin on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
Do you guys seriously think that the communication to the members on this site is up to par? No way in hell. I just went to the "Regions" tab to browse around. You have Jake Meyers listed as the contact for New Mexico even though he moved to Ohio. You still have Mel Ward listed for FL even though he asked to be replaced two years ago. If you click on the linked "website" next to the contact names you get another dissapointment. The link for the New England region takes you to a great set of pictures from a tech session held 10 years ago. TEN YEARS AGO!?!?!?! Seriously? The link next to Florida takes you to a page that invites you to an event that happened back in 2004 complete with bad contact info and dead hot links. The Mid Atlantic region takes you to a dead link that was hosted on Stan Shaws own servers, Excell.net. The exact same thing happens when you click on the one for South Carolina.

In the events section, the Sharks in the mountains is only covered up until 2009. The most current Frenzy info is from 2010. Third Coast is only current through 2006. Stan Shaw, the same guy who's trying to convince you that nothing needs to change is the one who is responsible for this website and it's contents. As Stan put it, if you want change, vote for Andrew Olson. If you want the same old out-dated info and dead links, by all means the status quo candidate is James Morrison.

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21 Aug 2012 23:17 #10364 by Mclovin
Replied by Mclovin on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis
While browsing around, I found one more thing. I'm sure there are plenty more. The "928 Journal" has two catergories. "928 Journal" and "928 Journal (old)" The NOT "old" one's newest posting is from 2005. The "old" one goes back before the turn of the century. :rolleyes:

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21 Aug 2012 23:20 #10365 by Jon B.
Replied by Jon B. on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

As Stan put it, if you want change, vote for Andrew Olson. If you want the same old out-dated info and dead links, by all means the status quo candidate is James Morrison.


Right, because I remember James saying that he wanted to maintain dead links on the site and out-dated info.

I would think that both candidates will address as many issues as they can. I'm 100% sure the OC will go in a positive direction regardless of who wins. I'm not saying that as a dig on Stan either. He's done as much as he could in the past nine years with his limited volunteer base. We can only go forward, and I believe that will happen.

Hell, I've already got ideas as to how I can help JUST my Region! I'll be looking for a butt-load of OC support. I can only hope that BOTH candidates are willing to put as much regional support forward as is requested (within reason).

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22 Aug 2012 00:57 #10367 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Do you guys seriously think that the communication to the members on this site is up to par? No way in hell. I just went to the "Regions" tab to browse around. You have Jake Meyers listed as the contact for New Mexico even though he moved to Ohio. You still have Mel Ward listed for FL even though he asked to be replaced two years ago. If you click on the linked "website" next to the contact names you get another dissapointment. The link for the New England region takes you to a great set of pictures from a tech session held 10 years ago. TEN YEARS AGO!?!?!?! Seriously? The link next to Florida takes you to a page that invites you to an event that happened back in 2004 complete with bad contact info and dead hot links. The Mid Atlantic region takes you to a dead link that was hosted on Stan Shaws own servers, Excell.net. The exact same thing happens when you click on the one for South Carolina.

In the events section, the Sharks in the mountains is only covered up until 2009. The most current Frenzy info is from 2010. Third Coast is only current through 2006. Stan Shaw, the same guy who's trying to convince you that nothing needs to change is the one who is responsible for this website and it's contents. As Stan put it, if you want change, vote for Andrew Olson. If you want the same old out-dated info and dead links, by all means the status quo candidate is James Morrison.

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I am still trying to understand why you bring that up now and how you did it with only 2 post

Now
Lets make something clear if you all want to keep posting on here.
If you have less then a 50-100 post its obvious that you do not spend a lot of time here.
To gain credibility on any forum its best to hang out and ask a few questions relating to the thread

If you come here and slam us with 2 post to your name you wont make many more.

I will not tolerate any rudeness.
You have been warned.

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22 Aug 2012 07:07 #10368 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

I am still trying to understand why you bring that up now and how you did it with only 2 post

Now
Lets make something clear if you all want to keep posting on here.
If you have less then a 50-100 post its obvious that you do not spend a lot of time here.
To gain credibility on any forum its best to hang out and ask a few questions relating to the thread

If you come here and slam us with 2 post to your name you wont make many more.

I will not tolerate any rudeness.
You have been warned.


Agreed. I guess a little election drama was all that was needed to attract the RL crowd to participate in the OC forums. :rolleyes:

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22 Aug 2012 07:15 #10370 by Mclovin
Replied by Mclovin on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

I am still trying to understand why you bring that up now and how you did it with only 2 post

Now
Lets make something clear if you all want to keep posting on here.
If you have less then a 50-100 post its obvious that you do not spend a lot of time here.
To gain credibility on any forum its best to hang out and ask a few questions relating to the thread

If you come here and slam us with 2 post to your name you wont make many more.

I will not tolerate any rudeness.
You have been warned.


Oh I see how it works here. If someone brings up facts, they are ignored and the poster is threatened. Why don't you address the issues I brought up? Oh, I see, you are one of those "more of the same" people. Please explain why it is OK that this website hasn't been updated properly in many years. The 928 OC isn't a club where everyone lives in the same town and can get together for a meeting once a month. It's a relatively small number of people spread across the globe. These people require some sort of interaction on the WWW in order for the club to survive and grow. There has been one President for 9 years. This President hosted the OC website on their own server and is a web guy in his daily life. He keeps preaching that things are fine and dandy and that he's chosen his predecessor ( James Morrison ) in order to carry on the practices of his Presidency. I find that problematic. Please explain to me how I'm way off base.

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22 Aug 2012 07:16 #10371 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Stan,
I've never suggested the OC be a subset of RL. I think both can and should exist. The only thing I suggested was that we promote the OC on RL as it has the largest single group of 928 owners in one area. I think DR was the one who suggested the irrelevance of this place and the website.


As I have previously stated Rennlist moderator Randy was adamantly opposed to 928 OC business being discussed there. Many years ago the 928 OC board discussed this, and decided that we would all be members of Rennlist to show our support and would *not* post 928 OC business there, except the annual nomination and election announcements.

I don't disagree that reaching out to 928ers elsewhere is good marketing, but you must also be aware of whether it is acceptable.

The effort needed to do this has been lacking, due to the lack of volunteer help.

You suggest that I am out of touch with the benefits the club offers. Why is that? Shouldn't the club, especially given its mission to help me get the most out of my 928, give some level of active communication to its members? Saying that it's posted on a website that frankly very few go to, is like saying you put up a billboard in the middle of the Arizona dessert. Sure it's there but is anyone going to read it?


As stated Andrew, the forums have over 50% of the members watching, so any postings there are viewed by the members as they desire. I can't make you go to the forums, that is true, but relying on random posts on Rennlists to reach members is also not going to work. Direct email may work, although in the limited emails I have done, I get feedback from members that they do not want to be direct emailed. Thus posting in the online forum, is a very reasonable practice. Snail mailing has unacceptable costs.

And to answer your question about how much money we should spend on OCIC and other regional events? I don't know. Maybe $10k, maybe nothing, maybe more, maybe less. How much should we spend on tools that 90% of the members will not use? What about trinkets? What about the website and hosting? What was the budget last year? What is the expected revenue for this year? Is it part of the mission?

I don't expect you to answer those questions, but these are the things I will be thinking about as we consider allocating the roughly $20k in annual dues the club receives and thinking about any reserves the club has.


Gary can provide you the costs of the 928 OC, $20k in annual dues has never happened, that is based on a presumption that the 600+ members have been renewing each year, as we advised that is a 50% increase in two years. Off the top of my heads, take $28*400 members of two years ago. The immediate cost is the shirt, duffle bag, etc. that is provided to each member. The cost, including shipping is kept to under 50% of the fee. So the result is that there was then $5600 to work with. That money was provided to events, like Frenzy, Sharktoberfest, SITM, Sharks in H*ll, Third Coast, etc. We have also bought a couple of tools, perhaps $1500 so far. Website hosting has remained a fixed cost, as it was before I became president, perhaps $500 per year including email filtering, etc.

Our treasurer, Gary Knox, who would be your treasurer if you win, has always wanted to keep close to $10k in reserve. The premises is that as the cars get older membership will drop off and the reserve will give the 928 OC board time to react with adjustments in programs as needed. I support this.

So, if you think you have a huge sum of money to spend, you are going to be wildly disappointed, as unless you dip into the reserve, there is typically only a few thousand of working capital at anytime, and any large event that we sponsor can deplete much of that. OCIC was $2800 and only 50 members benefited.

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22 Aug 2012 07:22 #10372 by DR928
Replied by DR928 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

I am still trying to understand why you bring that up now and how you did it with only 2 post

Now
Lets make something clear if you all want to keep posting on here.
If you have less then a 50-100 post its obvious that you do not spend a lot of time here.
To gain credibility on any forum its best to hang out and ask a few questions relating to the thread

If you come here and slam us with 2 post to your name you wont make many more.

I will not tolerate any rudeness.
You have been warned.


Brad,

In all due respect, can you explain to us why you perceive McLovin's Post pointing out "Data Points" with no personal attacks, as "Rudeness".. and Stan's very negative attacks on Andrew as "not rudeness".

IMHO, your post is exactly what is wrong with the OC. It has become some sort of "exclusive insiders club" with lots of back room secret deals and policy dictatorships.

Just as IMHO Stan being in position of complete control of the voting process, accounting of votes, this website, and this forum right down to the hosting company and servers, should remain neutral in this election cycle and not show favoritism, YOU as the "Moderator" of this Forum should also do the same...if a Moderator cannot stay neutral and not pick sides...he should NOT be the Moderator. Anything less in both cases IS an abuse of power.

Also buy your own new "Rule" of a 50-100 post count to "gain credibility", I guess our VP Marc White at 11 posts, our Trustee and Charter Member Wally Plumley at 20 Posts, our other Trustee and Multi-time OCIC Organizer Roger Tyson at 9 posts, our Secretary Greg Nichols at 4 Posts, our Treasury Gary Knox at 5 Posts, and me one of the Fouders at now 1 Post...should be on your version of "probation" here on the 928OC Forums....yeah, right, best of luck with that!

Maybe someone in Power here needs to give YOU a Warning.

Sincerely,

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22 Aug 2012 07:28 #10373 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Do you guys seriously think that the communication to the members on this site is up to par? No way in hell. I just went to the "Regions" tab to browse around. You have Jake Meyers listed as the contact for New Mexico even though he moved to Ohio. You still have Mel Ward listed for FL even though he asked to be replaced two years ago. If you click on the linked "website" next to the contact names you get another dissapointment. The link for the New England region takes you to a great set of pictures from a tech session held 10 years ago. TEN YEARS AGO!?!?!?! Seriously? The link next to Florida takes you to a page that invites you to an event that happened back in 2004 complete with bad contact info and dead hot links. The Mid Atlantic region takes you to a dead link that was hosted on Stan Shaws own servers, Excell.net. The exact same thing happens when you click on the one for South Carolina.

In the events section, the Sharks in the mountains is only covered up until 2009. The most current Frenzy info is from 2010. Third Coast is only current through 2006. Stan Shaw, the same guy who's trying to convince you that nothing needs to change is the one who is responsible for this website and it's contents. As Stan put it, if you want change, vote for Andrew Olson. If you want the same old out-dated info and dead links, by all means the status quo candidate is James Morrison.




Those events and posts you are referring to were submitted by the event organizers, since they have not submitted new ones, there are no new ones to post. Perhaps you want to volunteer to help them?

You suggest Andrew will get this information up to date, but in fact Andrew has previously stated that such work is "administration" and he has never specified it is what he expects to do.

As I have stated many times, volunteers are what we lack. So what can we sign you up for?

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22 Aug 2012 07:31 #10374 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

While browsing around, I found one more thing. I'm sure there are plenty more. The "928 Journal" has two catergories. "928 Journal" and "928 Journal (old)" The NOT "old" one's newest posting is from 2005. The "old" one goes back before the turn of the century. :rolleyes:


So apparently you signed up just to be a troll?
You are not a 928 OC member, right?
You are not offering to help, right?
You are simply pointing out what we all know, that more help is needed to do more.
Thank you for your insight :rolleyes:

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22 Aug 2012 07:35 #10375 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Brad,

In all due respect, can you explain to us why you perceive McLovin's Post pointing out "Data Points" with no personal attacks, as "Rudeness".. and Stan's very negative attacks on Andrew as "not rudeness".

IMHO, you post is exactly what is wrong with the OC. It has become some sort of "exclusive insiders club" with lots of back room secret deals and policy dictatorships.

Just as IMHO Stan being in position of complete control of the voting process, accounting of votes, this website, and this forum right down to the hosting company and servers, should remain neutral in this election cycle and not show favoritism, YOU as the "Moderator" of this Forum should also do the same...if a Moderator cannot stay neutral and not pick sides...he should NOT be the Moderator. Anything less in both cases IS an abuse of power.

Also buy your own new "Rule" of a 50-100 post count to "gain credibility", I guess our VP Marc White at 11 posts, our Trustee and Charter Member Wally Plumley at 20 Posts, our other Trustee and Multi-time OCIC Organizer Roger Tyson at 9 posts, our Secretary Greg Nichols at 4 Posts, our Treasury Gary Knox at 5 Posts, and me one of the Fouders at now 1 Post...should be on your version of "probation" here on the 928OC Forums....yeah, right, best of luck with that!

Maybe someone in Power here needs to give YOU a Warning.

Sincerely,


I have *only* stated facts with regard to Andrew, and all were in response to his "hope and change" theme of which no details have yet to be provided.

Everything about the 928 OC is completely transparent, except perhaps deals made at events which I am not privy to. You were on the 928 OC board, every vote is posted for members to see. In this case you have a non-member register anew to start making negative comments and campaigning for Andrew. This is what is commonly referred to as a troll, and is clearly against the policies of this forum.

Also, as when you were on the 928 OC board, you *know* if I didn't do almost everything nothing would be done. The 928 OC would still be what it was 9 years ago, when I took on the leadership, a club in name only with money in the bank.

I *am* passionate about what I have build here, and Brad is one of those who have stepped up to assist members. If you hadn't just started visiting here, you would know that. I can agree that Brad's suggested method of monitoring by post count is a quite reasonable one.

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22 Aug 2012 07:57 #10377 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Agreed. I guess a little election drama was all that was needed to attract the RL crowd to participate in the OC forums. :rolleyes:


These were originally member only forums, that we had opened up to encourage prospective members to join. Due to this issue, I have returned the temporarily opened forums to 928 OC members only.

I would state to members, any critical input is *welcomed* as these are your forums. Please refrain from personal attacks, and *please* offer suggestions on how *YOU* can help to correct what you find amiss.

Thank you.

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22 Aug 2012 08:03 #10378 by DR928
Replied by DR928 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

I have *only* stated facts with regard to Andrew, and all were in response to his "hope and change" theme of which no details have yet to be provided.

Everything about the 928 OC is completely transparent, except perhaps deals made at events which I am not privy to. You were on the 928 OC board, every vote is posted for members to see. In this case you have a non-member register anew to start making negative comments and campaigning for Andrew. This is what is commonly referred to as a troll, and is clearly against the policies of this forum.


Stan,

A troll is only a troll if what he states is not factual...please show where any of McLovin's facts are not 100% true...without the "nobody will help me do anything defense".

Here we have a non-member pointing out obvious issues he has with the OC and some of the many obvious shortfalls....a smart leader would look at this and take it as feedback to be used to make things better....NOT, get all defensive (as usual) and sick the dogs on him.

I know Andrew would do better than this, I sure hope James will, since it seems obvious the powers in charge have already elected him.

If you really want to know what could possibly be causing the lack of volunteers....try looking in the mirror (or at most of your negative and/or defensive spirited posts)...from my perspective (for what that is worth) the answers are there.

Also as I have said before, my perspective is not personal towards you, I know what it is like to try and run things at the OC without enough (or any) volunteers...I also know what it can do to a person over an extended period of time, much less 9 years...I see you as a victim of that and it has changed you from the "person" I know you to really be, to someone who is very negative and defensive at any mention of feedback or proposing changes around here.

BTW, since you are so dead set against Andrew and repeatedly say part of the issue is he has not helped you or the OC or has not served as an official, trustee, etc...why not change the Bylaws to state that Officer Candidates have to have served at the OC in some official capacity in order to be eligible for an OC Officer Position, especially President....sure would save a lot of grief, BS, and negativity within and outside the OC.

Pretty simple change...and you obviously have the power to do it....as you have stated, only you can bring something to a vote.

BTW, as I have shown you with recent help fixing your GT, I am still your 928 Pal... when the state of the 928OC is not part of the topic/subject...and again I blame the extended term of service, not you personally.

Sincerely,

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22 Aug 2012 08:06 #10379 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic The AO Platform, My Analysis

Oh I see how it works here. If someone brings up facts, they are ignored and the poster is threatened. Why don't you address the issues I brought up? Oh, I see, you are one of those "more of the same" people. Please explain why it is OK that this website hasn't been updated properly in many years. The 928 OC isn't a club where everyone lives in the same town and can get together for a meeting once a month. It's a relatively small number of people spread across the globe. These people require some sort of interaction on the WWW in order for the club to survive and grow. There has been one President for 9 years. This President hosted the OC website on their own server and is a web guy in his daily life. He keeps preaching that things are fine and dandy and that he's chosen his predecessor ( James Morrison ) in order to carry on the practices of his Presidency. I find that problematic. Please explain to me how I'm way off base.


You were not "threatened", you were warned appropriately by a moderator.
You bringing up what you consider lacking, if a member, would be met, with the same response I provided to you. What are *YOU* willing to do to improve what you find an issue with?

You are way off base, because except for 2 years ago, I have run *uncontested*. Most of those sitting on the sideline are not willing to listen to tirades from people who have offered nothing but criticism.

Yes, I have put in a *huge* effort, and with nobody willing to step up, I found a person who was willing to do so. Have you *ever* been the member of any club? That is the standard. The president identifies and mentors the next president. Certainly the members can override the choice, but usually it is members who are actually involved in the club, not people who have chosen to be uninvolved even when offered to develop their own programs.

Your desire to interlace fact with fiction is troubling. I have never said things are fine and dandy. I have said we have made great progress from nothing 9 years ago, to a new forum just 3 years ago with 40% growth in members in the past 2 years. There is still much to be done, and your points about content not being up to date is quite on target. Now *WHO* is going to help change that?

What have *you* offered to the 928 OC in the past 9 years?
What has Andrew offered to the 928 OC in the past 9 years?
James has performed the membership chair function for 2 years, and that is more work than most people will provide in a lifetime to the 928 OC.

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