Should I attempt to restore a 78 928?

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19 Jun 2011 20:22 #5179 by lgpp
So I have a family member willing to give me his 1978 European 928 with 80k miles. Currently the electricals are really jacked up.(None of the lights work, etc, etc.) The body isn't in the worst condition I've seen on a car but it's developing surface rust on the top and the paint looks like hell(peeling.)

It has been started so I know it will run. I'm pondering the idea of getting this car and bringing it back up to standard. It's an automatic.

I intend to have the interior restored and maybe input some modern accessories(stereo primarily, maybe gps).

My question is how much effort might this take and is there a ballpark figure based on your experience about how much it will cost.

I want it to look good once it's done if I take it on.

But I'm inexperienced with Porsche's and 928s. What do I need to look for?

Thanks!

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19 Jun 2011 20:28 #5180 by srshaw3
Do you care if the cost of the restoration will exceed the value of the resultant restored 928?

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19 Jun 2011 20:35 #5181 by lgpp
Not in particular. I don't really expect that I will want to sell it within the next 10 years.

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19 Jun 2011 21:46 #5182 by martinss
In a sense it depends on your need to work on it. You can almost always save money in the long run by buying a better example than in buying a poorer one. On the other hand if your aim is to do more, learn more, and have fun while gaining a sense of accomplishment go for one that needs more work - which is what the one you are looking at sounds like. It certainly won't be a good idea from a monetary perspective and has a higher risk of being a black hole. You won't believe what you find broken when you start to work on a 928 - complexity and age compound each other. A well sorted one that someone has already worked on for 5 years and lost all kinds of money on is the better fiscal choice.

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19 Jun 2011 21:56 #5183 by srshaw3
Until what is exactly know is wrong with it, costs are hard to predict. I will throw out some numbers to ponder, and for others to critique :)
1. electric is perhaps primarily labor in identifying and cleaning, $2-$3k
2. body requires some work, and since the paint will have faded, you will likely want a proper paint job; $5k for both
3. interior restore, $5k, could be more if panels are warped or broken, or could be less, if you are happy with a good used interior (and can find one).

You could save almost all the electrical cost, by doing it yourself. I think body work and painting lean towards being best done by professionals, so unless you happen to be one, you will need to pay for it. You could swap the interior yourself, and there have been those who have done this work themselves as well, perhaps saving 50%.

Then you "just" have the rest of the car to deal with.

Don't be put off though, while the numbers can escalate, there are many of us, who do this because at the end you have a car that may not have the market value to justify your effort and expense, but you definitely can get enough enjoyment out of it so that it really doesn't matter.

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19 Jun 2011 22:06 #5184 by 928mac
So you need to pull the engine to start with.

This will do 2 things.
1. you get to see how bad it really was and it still ran.
2. it will hold you back from cutting corners well you work on the rest of it.

-You need a double car garage because when it starts coming apart you need room to work.

- you need $10,000 to get a good chunk of the work done which should be the engine, some suspension, tires and brakes
Depends on where you live. shop wise.

-Stereo = $2800

James, what will his interior cost?

Then the paint job which is a 2 month min job if they are not busy.
in Canada its over $11,000 for a proper paint job and not a quick 3g insurance re-spray.

Lots of guys re-spray themselves with step by step on the net

Some of this stuff you can farm out but if you are handy then there are lots of us on the forums that can walk you through it.


The Big Problem.

Something happens and you no longer have the time or the money (family illness)

Its so sad when this happens but the toys are the first to go.

The 928 will become a passion, its strange, but it will happen if you take the leap.

Enter at your own risk.

Brad
Proud first time 982 owner
bought it for $10G and I have that or more into it 2 years

My advice is to read all you can first.

My page is here
forums.928oc.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37

.
.

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20 Jun 2011 18:46 #5189 by pcar928fan
This is easily a black hole for money to be sucked in to.

It all really depends on what you are willing to accept on this car. If you don't care about having REALLY NICE SEATS you can get shitty seat covers, if you don't car about a cracked or even worse leather peeling dash you can get an ugly carpet (sorry to those of you who have them...I personally HATE THEM) to glue on top of it. There are a zillion ways to cheap out on this thing. Take it to MAACO and get a total crap paint job for $1500 (really...that is what even their crap work will likely end up costing) and then clean all the ground points and replace all the relay's and fuses... You will be in to the car for a solid $2500k and it might even run.

If you want things like A/C to work and such like that... and heaven forbid you actually want the car to look good in and out...man you are talking HUGE MONEY there!

A good Rob Budd or Paul Champagne interior (and not the whole thing mind you just seats and a few other bits) is going to run you nearly $5k! Decent respectable paint is EASILY $5k... Do the math a decent '78 EURO Auto (which is probably one of the LEAST desirable 928's of all time) in excellent condition is not even worth $8k on a good day... These are NOT GOOD DAYS!

Good luck with whatever you decide. Of course if you do the work and are wiling to put up with it you can do all of this stuff over years and years, learning as you go... BTW< there was a recent thread about painting and I recall seeing that to do a 928 with a base coat and then proper color and clear and the supplies needed to make that happen is over $1500 in supplies (and I am not talking about a paint gun, booth, or compressor either! That is just paint and sand paper and tack cloths, etc)!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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20 Jun 2011 20:07 #5192 by lgpp
Question. Why is the 78 Euro Auto 928 so undesirable?

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20 Jun 2011 20:44 #5193 by srshaw3

Question. Why is the 78 Euro Auto 928 so undesirable?


Performance in the 928 improved through the years, and '78 was the first year. Manuals in general are more valuable than automatics as there were less made.

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21 Jun 2011 01:10 #5195 by pcar928fan
Oh, just noticed it is at least a '78... '78 is a touch more special because it is the first year.

The auto only had a 3 speed trans and was not very fast.

The '78/'79 cars (EURO or otherwise) made to little power by today's standards.

'78/'79 cars (EURO or US) had LOTS of vacuum operated things (like door locks...just as the most annoying example...though all 928's have to many vacuum operated bits in them really) and that usually is a HUGE PITA with these older cars...

I am casually looking for a VERY NICE '78 so I don't have to mess with a bunch of stuff but only because it is the FIRST model year of the car, NOT because I actually think the '78 is a great car per se. It is the first MY and it is the one that was awarded '78 CAR OF THE YEAR!

An '80 5spd would be a better choice (though there are plenty of issues with those early 5spd tranny's where the 3 speeds are pretty bullet proof). A better choice still would be a EURO S from just about any year '80-'86 and my personal fav (other than GTS's...which are EVERYONE'S FAVS) is the S4!

Drove my '88 tonight in fact...that car just puts the biggest damn smile on my face! That said my GTS's are faster and my Guards Red EURO85 gets ALL the attention when it goes out of the garage!

You can't lose with any 928, but some are actually more desirable than others and a '78 is better than a '79 for sure but the 5spd would be MUCH more fun and engaging and quick to drive and enjoy...PITA as a DD though.

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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21 Jun 2011 20:08 #5204 by lgpp
Hmmm....almost sounds like I should look for an S4 somewhere. What's a typical price range of a good condition 80s model S4 with lower miles?

How much is too many miles on one of these cars. I saw a 1979 928 Manual close to where I was for 10k. Think it had about 160k miles on it though. Seemed like a lot for the car.

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21 Jun 2011 20:24 #5205 by srshaw3

Hmmm....almost sounds like I should look for an S4 somewhere. What's a typical price range of a good condition 80s model S4 with lower miles?

How much is too many miles on one of these cars. I saw a 1979 928 Manual close to where I was for 10k. Think it had about 160k miles on it though. Seemed like a lot for the car.


You would need to define lower miles, under 30k you will pay a premium as it approaches collector value. Keep in mind even a lower mileage car will have many older rubber and plastic parts. If you plan on driving it, look for the best example you can find with known maintenance, and have a pre purchase inspection performed by a 928 experienced mechanic.

I would suggest you *might* find a decent S4 for close to $10k because of the economic conditions of the market, but you are more likely to need to pay closer to $20k. Of course there are premium examples out there that might be marketed for much more, whether they are worth it depends on whether it is worth it to you.

In general mileage is not a concern. A well maintained 928 is just broken in at 100k and could easily see 200k+.

Just don't buy a fixer upper without fully understanding what you are getting into. The 928 community is great support for doing the fixing up, but it can be very costly and very time consuming, plus you may not be driving the car as much as you would like.

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22 Jun 2011 15:44 #5220 by pcar928fan
'79 5spd for $10k? That would indeed be optimistic! Car would have to be in show quality condition throughout to command that kind of cash.

I think Stan might be a little high... I agree the current economic climate is pretty much CRAP, but really nice ready to drive S4's (auto's, not 5spds) should start at about $13k and go up from there depending on just how nice the paint and interior are.

As noted miles hardly matter at all... I don't worry about the mileage on a 928. It is all about the condition. Now if the interior is ratty because it has high mileage then yea, maybe the miles were hard on the car. That said, I have seen trashed interiors on 50k mile cars and I have seen concours condition interiors on 150k mile cars!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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23 Jun 2011 21:52 #5233 by lgpp
Well it sounds like I should save my dollars for a better 928 to come along. Now what to do with a free 928....hmmm.

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24 Jun 2011 03:47 #5235 by srshaw3
If you buy the same vintage, it could be used for parts, or if you want to spend many hours learning about a 928 you can take it apart. Some parts would have value.

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24 Jun 2011 15:34 #5244 by 928mac

Well it sounds like I should save my dollars for a better 928 to come along. Now what to do with a free 928....hmmm.


Why not just see what it will need so that you can drive it and start from there.

Do you have some pictures

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24 Jun 2011 17:26 #5246 by lgpp

Why not just see what it will need so that you can drive it and start from there.

Do you have some pictures


Well I know for sure the electrical have to be redone because the guy that had it before my family got it ripped out the harnesses for some reason. It did run but it has been sitting for probably a year now. So at the very least I'll have to pop a battery in it to see if I can get it to start again. It needs some work for sure.

I was told that it was a handbuilt 928 but I don't really know if that is completely true or not.

I don't have any pictures yet because it's back east right now. I can take some when I get back there later next month.

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24 Jun 2011 20:13 #5247 by srshaw3

I was told that it was a handbuilt 928 but I don't really know if that is completely true or not.


All 928s were hand built.

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25 Jun 2011 00:43 #5250 by lgpp

All 928s were hand built.


Well then I guess there really is no reason to attempt a restore on that car.

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28 Jun 2011 08:03 #5286 by linderpat
I would keep the car. In my opinion, a first year Euro speciman is valuable, even if it is an automatic. I would restore it over time too. Bring it back. If you can do some or all of the work yourself, then you will save considerable money. Learn how if you don't know (look at the Rennlist site for lots of info on resto and repair for the 928). It won't be cheap or easy, but very doable. These early cars are much easier to work on than the later years. They are also lighter, and drive differently - more like a sports car. I've had several years, and my current 78 is my favorite. It was the first year, and they do not make them anymore.
You can pick pick up a driver for a few thousand, just to get to know the brand. Store that 78 (read a few threads about proper storage techniques), drive a later model for awhile, then start to gather parts for your project. It will be more difficult to find parts for the 78 however, just take your time with it. I think you have something special, if done right, over the long haul.

PS - don't just fire it up after it has been sitting for so long. Pull the battery strap, drain the fuel tank of the old fuel, clean all grounds on the car, especially the ones underneath and at the battery, pull the plugs and spray some oil down the holes. These simple steps can keep you from damaging a dormant engine.

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14 Jul 2011 18:56 #5567 by lgpp
I finally got a look at the car and it needs some serious work done.

Did have a question though.

I looked at the information placard and it states it's a 928S and a 1978.

Is that correct? Thought the S wasn't added to the designation til the 80s, but then again I'm not a 928 expert.

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14 Jul 2011 19:35 #5568 by xjadz928
I agree with Ed (Linderpat) on this one.
The fact it's a Euro '78 is cool, esp. if it's a really early one.
And when you mentioned the tag says it's a 928S, that tipped me off.
I think this one may be VIN ending in 00295.
This is a very early Auto, possibly the earliest example in the US.
To most, that may not mean much, since so few Autos were produced in '78, and this being such an early car #295 make this pretty cool in my book.
I believe this car was talked about here:
forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum...y-example-295-a.html

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14 Jul 2011 20:48 #5570 by 928mac

I agree with Ed (Linderpat) on this one.
The fact it's a Euro '78 is cool, esp. if it's a really early one.
And when you mentioned the tag says it's a 928S, that tipped me off.
I think this one may be VIN ending in 00295.
This is a very early Auto, possibly the earliest example in the US.
To most, that may not mean much, since so few Autos were produced in '78, and this being such an early car #295 make this pretty cool in my book.
I believe this car was talked about here:
forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum...y-example-295-a.html


Hey jim, sounds like a car for the project

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14 Jul 2011 21:23 #5571 by xjadz928
Brad, I'm a little thrown off with it being an Auto.
The Geneva car was a 5 speed, for sure.
Good news is I have a couple lines on an early 5sp Euro, for cheap, if not free.

Finding the right car won't be a problem.
The real work will be in the pulling everyone together.

Your head is in the right place though! :)

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14 Jul 2011 21:28 #5572 by 928mac
I'm just happy that we might have something to get everyone involved

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14 Jul 2011 22:50 #5581 by lgpp
VIN on it is 9288101024.

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15 Jul 2011 14:53 #5595 by pcar928fan
I suspect if it says 928S on the import sticker and that it was imported after the "S" cars came out (ie imported after 1980 or around then) some MORON just wrote 928S on the import cert so it could be and "S" car! Probably not having any idea of what that actually means... Just speculating. Back then you could put just about any designation on your car when you were importing it that you wanted!

Jim, on your idea of restoring a car to raffle off, if it is NOT and auto then I won't buy a raffle ticket or 10 and there will be more than a few folks who can't even drive it (there are more than just me out here)... I suspect that a 5spd car would be preferred by the most avid enthusiasts but this project is about inclusion of all 928 OC members and I would never support a 5spd project car because it would leave many out.

We are not talking about a car for someone to buy, we are talking about a raffle car for someone to WIN... If they buy 1 ticket win the car, hate the auto, then they sell it for 100% profit for market value (less than a 5spd of course) and then add their own money back in to buy a 5spd they like... Just saying...

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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15 Jul 2011 15:34 #5606 by xjadz928

I suspect if it says 928S on the import sticker and that it was imported after the "S" cars came out (ie imported after 1980 or around then) some MORON just wrote 928S on the import cert so it could be and "S" car! Probably not having any idea of what that actually means... Just speculating. Back then you could put just about any designation on your car when you were importing it that you wanted!

Jim, on your idea of restoring a car to raffle off, if it is NOT and auto then I won't buy a raffle ticket or 10 and there will be more than a few folks who can't even drive it (there are more than just me out here)... I suspect that a 5spd car would be preferred by the most avid enthusiasts but this project is about inclusion of all 928 OC members and I would never support a 5spd project car because it would leave many out.

We are not talking about a car for someone to buy, we are talking about a raffle car for someone to WIN... If they buy 1 ticket win the car, hate the auto, then they sell it for 100% profit for market value (less than a 5spd of course) and then add their own money back in to buy a 5spd they like... Just saying...


I read ya, brother! You will buy a ticket anyway. You'll want it in your garage. ;)
We will have to run that one by some other folks, as my purist snobbery may get the best of me. :D

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