To NOS or not to NOS your 928

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08 Aug 2010 12:47 #631 by 928mac
Turbos are an incredible performance enhancement as well.

When chev added the turbo to the (Grand National) that little 3.8L came to life and would eat hot rods with big blocks in them.

The repairs that I had to do to them were Oil leaks due to the high crank case pressure due to blow by, and the heat melted everything close.

My problem with turbo systems is only the added heat under the hood and the minor part is the lag that some systems have, other then that, its a great enhancement.

Super charging your car (in my opinion) achieves the same result without near the heat and zero lag.
I would never dicker one over the other because they are both great systems and are ment to be installed and enjoyed.

NOS (IMHO) would be a better option for the guys that have to deal with state laws because it can be uninstalled, easier.
They can then get the smog check done, go home, reinstall there NOS and go blow the doors of some vet all in the same day.

The turbo and the supercharger are systems that have a different feel and both have pros and cons.

If I had the cash i would have to think long and hard but due to the changes in the SC world in drivability and tun-ability, I would lean that way.

The Roots type blower is a serious system and thats why top fuel pros use it.
The centrifugal SC is the answer for smooth but kick your A$$ power

The Turbo is the (back in the day) smoother increase in power adder which is why the industrial world uses the turbo on everything, but as I said above, the centrifugal system can be a very friendly system.

I am not a pro in any of these areas, just a mechanic that has had to deal with them over the past 20 years.

Oh, what am I going to use, ... NOS because it is cheap and if I decide that I want a SC or Turbo down the road, its not a waste of money that will sit in the corner.

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08 Aug 2010 14:32 #632 by Kiln_Red
I am not so much a fan of forced induction. That said, IF I were to ever change my mind, I would feel more inclined to go the turbo route with these cars. I don't like blowers. They're too high maintenance for my taste. Besides that, a 928 engine can be turbo'd for not too much $$ or hassle. You can use the 951 turbos and related equipment on our cars, too. The only concern is room. I once saw an '85 twin turbo with the 951 equipment on each bank. The guy had to cut into the inner structure to make it fit, but believe it or not, it actually looked neat. If I had to guess, I'd say he was making 500 horsepower easily with his setup.

I WOULD NEVER CONSIDER SPRAYING NITROUS... I just think it's too hard on an engine. It's no friend to rings and seals. It's my belief that these engines are just too extraordinary and rare to abuse in that way. Save the juice for the more readily available, cheaper engines of the world. Just my take.

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08 Aug 2010 16:16 #633 by 928mac

I am not so much a fan of forced induction. That said, IF I were to ever change my mind, I would feel more inclined to go the turbo route with these cars. I don't like blowers. They're too high maintenance for my taste. Besides that, a 928 engine can be turbo'd for not too much $$ or hassle. You can use the 951 turbos and related equipment on our cars, too. The only concern is room. I once saw an '85 twin turbo with the 951 equipment on each bank. The guy had to cut into the inner structure to make it fit, but believe it or not, it actually looked neat. If I had to guess, I'd say he was making 500 horsepower easily with his setup.

I WOULD NEVER CONSIDER SPRAYING NITROUS... I just think it's too hard on an engine. It's no friend to rings and seals. It's my belief that these engines are just too extraordinary and rare to abuse in that way. Save the juice for the more readily available, cheaper engines of the world. Just my take.



I agree 130% that any performance increase is harder on everything and the last thing I want to do is takeout a 928 Vin# by loosing an engine.

So far mine is stock except for the Alt and the Y-pipe which I am hanging on to the original equipment. Oh ya the stereo and 6 speakers were missing or total junk so I had no choice but to install aftermarket.

I am going to research the NOS thing before I make any decision. I want to know if it will dry out the heads as it dose on cast heads, and I want to know the effect on the rings, valves, and nicisil cylinders.

If it can be a maintained controlled burn with just a little extra fuel and O2 then I don't see a problem.

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10 Aug 2010 12:25 #643 by N2O-928
A Progressive Nitrous System can be tuned to come on just like a Turbo or SC system and is only active when you need it, your not driving a modified 928 all the time. IMHO SC and Turbos are great for Track use when the power is needed lap after lap, but not on the street :D

Mine starts pulsing at 2500 and increases to 4200 RPM and then it is wide open. All controled by the factory WOT and RPM signal.
Just activate it and drive, no buttons to push :)

Here is a vid from this weekend, enjoy !

Dave

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10 Aug 2010 12:35 #644 by N2O-928


I WOULD NEVER CONSIDER SPRAYING NITROUS... I just think it's too hard on an engine. It's no friend to rings and seals. It's my belief that these engines are just too extraordinary and rare to abuse in that way. Save the juice for the more readily available, cheaper engines of the world. Just my take.


Not so if done correctly, you must be watching the videos where these guy are spraying (or more like dumping) 150 and greater w/o corectly removing timing and adjusting the AFR. Sure if you dump a large HP charge it is not good for the rings and gaskets.

Nitrous done corectly will not hurt the eng, all you doing is adding Ox and fuel in a metered amount to produce the HP you want.
There are many Turbo and SC cars that cook their engs too if the timing and AFR are incorrect.

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17 Aug 2010 14:37 #658 by Brett928S2
Hi All :)

I was asked to contribute here on Nitrous for a 928

I have run Nitrous on my 928S2 starting with a 50 hp system and working my way up to a 2000hp system lol

For any that do not know me , I hold the UK 1/4 mile record for 928s at 13.035 seconds @ 113.3 mph, and also the Uk top speed record for 928s at 208.1 mph.

Both of these would not have been possible without Nitrous


Any questions on anything to do with 928s and Nitrous... ask away....

All the best Brett :)

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17 Aug 2010 15:27 #660 by 928mac
Thanks Brett, what are the different types?

Hi All :)

I was asked to contribute here on Nitrous for a 928

I have run Nitrous on my 928S2 starting with a 50 hp system and working my way up to a 2000hp system lol

For any that do not know me , I hold the UK 1/4 mile record for 928s at 13.035 seconds @ 113.3 mph, and also the Uk top speed record for 928s at 208.1 mph.

Both of these would not have been possible without Nitrous


Any questions on anything to do with 928s and Nitrous... ask away....

All the best Brett :)


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17 Aug 2010 15:44 #661 by Brett928S2

Thanks Brett, what are the different types?


Hi :)

I just posted this on Pelican so to save my ancient fingers typing it again, I will copy it here...

"Now I need to explain some basic Nitrous stuff first....

This might sound condescending or strange to you as I am English and although we both speak the same language (ish) , sometimes things come across differently...lol , so please ask if you are unsure of what I mean....

Firstly a lot of what I will say is MY opinion only and other people who use Nitrous may well disagree with me... probably a LOT of them....

Without sounding immodest though, I suspect I might be the worlds foremost expert on Nitrous for 928s..I use enough of the stuff to qualify lol.

Ok..so lets get on with it....

There are two types of Nitrous system...

1, WET

2, DRY

The difference between the two is that A wet system provides EXTRA Fuel AND Nitrous both at the same time....

A dry system ONLY provides Nitrous to the engine and it relies on YOU (or the cars electronics) to provide the extra fuel it NEEDS.

Now come the controversial bit..... most American systems are DRY systems and the one and only UK system (Wizards of Nos) is a WET system...


Most American Nitrous experts would usually say, run a dry system as they are fine and have worked for 50 years.....

"I" would say....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... a 928 will NOT run a dry system easily or safely...

So if you want my advice , on a 928 in particular you MUST run a WET system....

My best advice to you is to buy a Wizards of Nos system from one of their American dealers as they are miles ahead in Nitrous technology.

Their systems are easy to fit and will run perfectly happily on your CIS system.

It will take you around 2 hours if you take your time to fit the kit.....assuming you are reasonable with spanners....(if you can change the plugs on a 928, then the kit will be easy)

The kit will contain a CROSSFIRE Jet plus piping plus bottle plus switch plus relay plus Pulsoids plus jets....

You can add other stuff later , like a bottle heater and a controller if you wish but that depends on how much hp you will use......for 50 hp you dont need them and you only really need to think about them from around 100 to 150 hp upwards

The huge advantage of Nitrous is that you drive the car perfectly normally UNTIL you want the extra power (mine is my daily driver as an example)

I do warn you that Nitrous power is very addictive lol

The more you have the more you want...hehe

Any more questions, just ask

This is the sort of kit you should be looking at >>> www.noswizard.com/product_list.php?id=19

All the best Brett :)"

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18 Aug 2010 19:36 #664 by Kiln_Red

Not so if done correctly, you must be watching the videos where these guy are spraying (or more like dumping) 150 and greater w/o corectly removing timing and adjusting the AFR. Sure if you dump a large HP charge it is not good for the rings and gaskets.

Nitrous done corectly will not hurt the eng, all you doing is adding Ox and fuel in a metered amount to produce the HP you want.
There are many Turbo and SC cars that cook their engs too if the timing and AFR are incorrect.


There is no denying that nitrous induction generates greater cylinder temperatures. As with any forced combustion system, nitrous adds a strain on the bottom end also. Even as tough as the 928 engine is, I don't feel like it is indestructible. Why do you think so many guys build up their internals with h-beam rods and such before they "spray"? It's just something I don't have the guts to try with a 928. I agree that the tune makes all the difference in how potentially dangerous a power adder can be to any engine. I guess I was just turned off by nitrous the last time I pulled green spark plugs from a fox body mustang. :)

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19 Aug 2010 15:31 #669 by Brett928S2

There is no denying that nitrous induction generates greater cylinder temperatures. As with any forced combustion system, nitrous adds a strain on the bottom end also. Even as tough as the 928 engine is, I don't feel like it is indestructible. Why do you think so many guys build up their internals with h-beam rods and such before they "spray"? It's just something I don't have the guts to try with a 928. I agree that the tune makes all the difference in how potentially dangerous a power adder can be to any engine. I guess I was just turned off by nitrous the last time I pulled green spark plugs from a fox body mustang. :)


Hi Austin :)

There is a lot more known these days about how Nitrous affects cylinder temperatures and pressures, mainly thanks to Trevor Langfield (owner of Wizards of Nos)

When high pressure (950 psi) LIQUID Nitrous enters the cylinders it does what is called "phase change" , which basically means it changes from a liquid to a gas... that assumes it actually gets there as a liquid, which only certain systems manage :( ...(WON systems are the only one I know that manage that perfectly)

Phase change will DROP the cylinder temperature by roughly 65 degrees and then combustion and nitrous dissociation (where the nitrous and oxygen molecules separate) happen and the cylinder temp increases by around 70 degrees... so hardly much difference.

I do emphasise that the nitrous MUST reach the cylinders as a liquid though....and most systems cannot manage that.

As far as 928 engines taking the extra power of Nitrous, its a VERY VERY strong engine and can take huge amounts of Nitrous that no ordinary 928 owner will ever come near (apart from nutters like me lol)

Its a matter of SMOOTH delivery to the engine which is done by Pulsing the Pulsoids ....

All the best Brett :)

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21 Aug 2010 00:16 #683 by Kiln_Red

Hi Austin :)

There is a lot more known these days about how Nitrous affects cylinder temperatures and pressures, mainly thanks to Trevor Langfield (owner of Wizards of Nos)

When high pressure (950 psi) LIQUID Nitrous enters the cylinders it does what is called "phase change" , which basically means it changes from a liquid to a gas... that assumes it actually gets there as a liquid, which only certain systems manage :( ...(WON systems are the only one I know that manage that perfectly)

Phase change will DROP the cylinder temperature by roughly 65 degrees and then combustion and nitrous dissociation (where the nitrous and oxygen molecules separate) happen and the cylinder temp increases by around 70 degrees... so hardly much difference.

I do emphasise that the nitrous MUST reach the cylinders as a liquid though....and most systems cannot manage that.

As far as 928 engines taking the extra power of Nitrous, its a VERY VERY strong engine and can take huge amounts of Nitrous that no ordinary 928 owner will ever come near (apart from nutters like me lol)

Its a matter of SMOOTH delivery to the engine which is done by Pulsing the Pulsoids ....

All the best Brett :)

Sounds like a reasonable explanation to me, and yes, these engines are very tough. That I do know. Perhaps nitrous may be a healthy power adder after all. I must admit, I think I'm due to do a little more homework on the subject myself. To be truthful, I still wouldn't have the guts to try it myself only since I have seen so many bad experiences with nitrous-use on other autos.

Very educational thread. :)

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21 Aug 2010 18:20 #685 by 928mac
Hey Austin, we have all heard about those nasty nitrous gone wrong jobs.

I would not have considered it myself if I had not searched out more info on it.

When you search 928 nitrous on u-tube and watch the videos of the races and of guys running 1000 HP out of these little 5L engines it really started to make me wonder if a small 50 or 100 shot kit may not be to bad.

Now I really don't need the tickets and I know that more power will!!! be trouble, but ..... What the H3LL.

Who convinced me was (N2O-928) off of rennlist. I also asked him to add to this thread.
When he told me that it is more stable with the controllers monitoring the air/fuel mixture my ears perked up.

Both N2O-928 and Brett have convinced me to do it right, don't cheep out, and the rest is pleasure.

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18 Sep 2010 09:32 #1109 by N2O-928
have you all seen this one?

I have been meaning to post the how to and lessions learned but have been working way too much OT to sit down in front of a keyboard, but i will do it. :p

Dave



Here is the kit I use, I also use their Progressive Controler, works great w/ our cars computer signals.
(you need to pull out at least 6 deg of timing I am doing 8 right now) and install two heat range colder non-projected copper plugs)

www.nitrousexpress.com/product-details.php?id=865

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23 Sep 2010 11:35 #1249 by 928mac
So here is my question.

How do i retard the timing on my 89 S4
I can't turn the distributor if there is not one to turn.
just 2 caps bolted to the cover

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23 Sep 2010 21:30 #1266 by Kiln_Red

So here is my question.

How do i retard the timing on my 89 S4
I can't turn the distributor if there is not one to turn.
just 2 caps bolted to the cover


Brad,

The SharkTuner is your answer. If my understanding is correct, then the SharkTuner makes adjustments to ignition timing on its own. You give the SharkTuner information about what grade fuel, injector size, etc. and it programs ignition timing accordingly. Another advantage is the wideband o2 sensor.

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24 Sep 2010 10:31 #1290 by 928mac
Is the Shark tuner a scan tool? guess I could look which I will after this post. :rolleyes:

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24 Sep 2010 18:17 #1306 by Brett928S2
Hi Brad :)

If you dont want to buy a Sharktuner, then John Speake will always blow you a chip with whatever advance or retard you wish....

He blew me one with the rev limit sort of removed for my 200 plus runs... he couldn't actually remove the limit, but he moved it up as high as he could ...which was 9710 revs lol, which I figured was just as good :)

I think he charged me £50 for the custom chip...

All the best Brett :)

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29 Oct 2010 11:56 #1816 by 928mac

Hi Brad :)

If you dont want to buy a Sharktuner, then John Speake will always blow you a chip with whatever advance or retard you wish....

He blew me one with the rev limit sort of removed for my 200 plus runs... he couldn't actually remove the limit, but he moved it up as high as he could ...which was 9710 revs lol, which I figured was just as good :)

I think he charged me £50 for the custom chip...

All the best Brett :)


I ended up getting this kit

www.928motorsports.com/parts/tec_gt_engine_management.php

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29 Oct 2010 12:22 #1817 by pcar928fan
Back in '98 at Frenzy II I saw (or rather heard) a NOS'ed 928...I have no idea who it belonged to or if it is still around, but I'd be interested to know what came of it and if it lasted or what...

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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05 Jan 2011 18:12 #2702 by 928mac
Hey Brett;

I have the engine on the floor and going to start stripping it for the new head gaskets soon.

Then I will be ready for some boost

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I was fooling around with some chrome rattle can here

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05 Jan 2011 20:59 #2736 by pcar928fan
Looks much better than all flaky and stuff!

Keep hoping I can get Sean R. down here to do my S4 intake...it looks like CRAP and my '92 is only slightly better... Love to have BOTH of them looking better underhood!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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07 Jun 2011 16:28 #5063 by N2O-928

I ended up getting this kit

www.928motorsports.com/parts/tec_gt_engine_management.php


Hi 928mac, were you at SITM this year?
I gave a few people an "E Ticket" ride, if you were I'm sorry I missd you as I had over half of second tank when I got home (started out with two, one full and one at 2/3).

Also it was the first time I got to use it on the interstate and worked real well for reeling in the SC sharks.

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07 Jun 2011 21:53 #5066 by 928mac

Hi 928mac, were you at SITM this year?
I gave a few people an "E Ticket" ride, if you were I'm sorry I missd you as I had over half of second tank when I got home (started out with two, one full and one at 2/3).

Also it was the first time I got to use it on the interstate and worked real well for reeling in the SC sharks.


No I didn't get a chance as to much is going on and the car is still a while from getting done. I do have a question though.

I wonder if I can use my Tec-gt ECM to control the Nos? i know it can be used to turn it on and off but I wonder if it will pulse the solenoid so that I can set up a progressive ramp?I was thinking of using the NOS 200 shot kit
nitrousdirect.com/wetnitrouskits.html

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10 Jun 2011 13:21 #5088 by N2O-928

No I didn't get a chance as to much is going on and the car is still a while from getting done. I do have a question though.

I wonder if I can use my Tec-gt ECM to control the Nos? i know it can be used to turn it on and off but I wonder if it will pulse the solenoid so that I can set up a progressive ramp?I was thinking of using the NOS 200 shot kit
nitrousdirect.com/wetnitrouskits.html


I do not think it can do it, the NX Progressive controler looks at RPM WOT switch and then you program the % base on RPM. You are dealing w/ two seperate things, you will need the N2O controler, else it will be all or nothing and you do not want that.

I took Gary Knox for a short ride and she put a smile on his face. :D

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10 Jun 2011 18:10 #5090 by 928mac

I do not think it can do it, the NX Progressive controler looks at RPM WOT switch and then you program the % base on RPM. You are dealing w/ two seperate things, you will need the N2O controler, else it will be all or nothing and you do not want that.

I took Gary Knox for a short ride and she put a smile on his face. :D


Ha Ha I bet it did.

Ok so with the controller can you set multiple rpm point percentages like 10% at 2000, 15% at 2500, all the way up to say 75% at 6500 and that way detune the 200HP shot to 75% except for when the WOT switch is tripped ramp to the 200 at 6000?
or dose it not have the ability for multiple maps?

Brad

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19 Jun 2011 11:11 #5173 by N2O-928

Ha Ha I bet it did.

Ok so with the controller can you set multiple rpm point percentages like 10% at 2000, 15% at 2500, all the way up to say 75% at 6500 and that way detune the 200HP shot to 75% except for when the WOT switch is tripped ramp to the 200 at 6000?
or dose it not have the ability for multiple maps?

Brad


Well almost correct, the WOT signal is a "trigger" with out it the system won't turn on. So you can drive around with the N2O system activated (on) but nothing will happen until the N2O computer see WOT.

Once N2O computer sees the go peddle is “fully” depressed and that is really the only time one would want to spray fuel and N2O in the intake.

The N2O computer looks at the RPM signal and pulses the solenoids at whatever percentage you have set for the RPM the engine is at. (I start at 20% at 2300 RPM and ramp up to 100% by the time I reach 4200 RPM and cut it off at 6000 RPM.

The total HP percentage is based on the jets that you plac in the nozzle, the size of the jets are base on the displacement of the engine, the HP you want (say 150hp), the fuel pressure (for the fuel jet as it is the extra Fuel that creates the HP) the N2O jet is then sized to provide the supporting Ox for the Fuel, there is a chart that come w/ the system for jet sizing.

Dave

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19 Jun 2011 12:12 #5175 by N2O-928
Here is a screen shot of the software when I was trying different settings, I think you can down load a copy for free from the Nitrous Express Web site.

Attached files [img]media/attachments/5315=600-WP_000358.jpg[/img]

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19 Jun 2011 17:15 #5177 by 928mac

Here is a screen shot of the software when I was trying different settings, I think you can down load a copy for free from the Nitrous Express Web site.


Very cool, Thanks. You know I still don't know your name.

Brad

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24 Jun 2011 14:44 #5241 by N2O-928

Ha Ha I bet it did.

Ok so with the controller can you set multiple rpm point percentages like 10% at 2000, 15% at 2500, all the way up to say 75% at 6500 and that way detune the 200HP shot to 75% except for when the WOT switch is tripped ramp to the 200 at 6000?
or dose it not have the ability for multiple maps?

Brad

Very cool, Thanks. You know I still don't know your name.

Brad


Hi Brad it's Dave (aka davek9 on that other site ;)

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