Wheel alignment

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25 Mar 2013 12:09 #14018 by WyattsRide
Wheel alignment was created by WyattsRide
The tires on the front are worn and smooth on the inside track. The tires on rear are worn evenly but are down to the wear bars. So, I need new tires.

Do I need to get both the front and rear wheels aligned or do I only get the fronts aligned?

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25 Mar 2013 14:02 #14020 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic Wheel alignment
Rick, first of all let me start by saying again that you have one beautiful car! I am enjoying the picture thread.

I'm sure you're aware of how the alignment must be done on the 928. The suspension is *very* stiff on the 928, so it is very important that the shop performing the alignment knows that the car cannot be raised for a "shake down" unless the car can be driven a reasonable amount before continuing the alignment or after replacing suspension parts.

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25 Mar 2013 14:06 #14021 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic Wheel alignment
Here is a link with better detail about wheel alignments on the 928.

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25 Mar 2013 18:58 #14027 by WyattsRide
Replied by WyattsRide on topic Wheel alignment

Rick, first of all let me start by saying again that you have one beautiful car! I am enjoying the picture thread.

I'm sure you're aware of how the alignment must be done on the 928. The suspension is *very* stiff on the 928, so it is very important that the shop performing the alignment knows that the car cannot be raised for a "shake down" unless the car can be driven a reasonable amount before continuing the alignment or after replacing suspension parts.


Thank you Austin, I really appreciate the compliments. I really love my 928 and try to make it look, function and drive as well is it can. It's definitely not perfect but it is pretty nice to me.

I am aware of the not lifting etc. that our 928 need for proper alignments. I've printed off, I think everything! I guess what I wasn't sure about is the rear alignment. Nothing is much said about that.

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25 Mar 2013 20:53 #14029 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic Wheel alignment
Doesn't sound like it would be necessary given the tire wear is even as you indicated.

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26 Mar 2013 20:53 #14049 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Wheel alignment
These cars generally don't run much camber out back and it sounds like your alignment is right on. If you are running some negative camber up front (and we all do...some more than others) then it sounds as if your fronts are wearing properly as well. As long as the wear on the left side matches the wear on the right side and you are not unhappy with that inner tire wear up front AND the car handles well, then I say LEAVE IT ALONE! Don't fix what ain't broke as they say!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
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27 Mar 2013 23:18 #14082 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Wheel alignment
I run hugh Camber up front, but I have different A-arms

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27 Mar 2013 23:46 #14086 by wallyp
Replied by wallyp on topic Wheel alignment
A complete alignment will be all four wheels. You need to find a shop that understands the procedure for aligning the 928. If they can not, or will not, align the car without lifting it from the ground, drive away.

Wally Plumley
928 Specialists
www.928gt.com

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28 Mar 2013 11:55 #14089 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Wheel alignment
928's are really a difficult car to align and if they don't recognize that then they either are not doing it right or are clueless!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
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29 Mar 2013 08:43 #14099 by WyattsRide
Replied by WyattsRide on topic Wheel alignment

These cars generally don't run much camber out back and it sounds like your alignment is right on. If you are running some negative camber up front (and we all do...some more than others) then it sounds as if your fronts are wearing properly as well. As long as the wear on the left side matches the wear on the right side and you are not unhappy with that inner tire wear up front AND the car handles well, then I say LEAVE IT ALONE! Don't fix what ain't broke as they say!


So you're saying that running negative camber (which I have) and wearing the inside track of the tire smooth before the rest of the tire tread is worn is the way it's supposed to be?

I do get a little shake and the front feels somewhat unstable at high speeds (80 mph +) which from my understand could be the result of the alignment being off. The problem I have is not having anything to compare this too. I haven't driven another 928 at 80 MPH + to see if what I feel is correct or not.

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29 Mar 2013 14:57 #14107 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Wheel alignment
If you are running the inside edge of the tire much more than the rest of the tire how in the world could you POSSIBLY wear the rest of the tire at the same rate??? Just think about that for a minute. I'll wait for you...

:)

Rick, just look at a race car running a ton of camber, the outside edge (other than from cornering) will be untouched while the inside edge will be GONE. Just a fact of life. Run ZERO camber if you want to try and wear them evenly and then don't corner to fast or you will then wear the OUTSIDE edge more. On the wheels that steer the car it is impossible to get good handling and even tire wear across the width of the tread. For a brief period there were tires with built in camber... Pretty cool! I bet those wore evenly...

Your car should be rock solid and smooth at 150+ let alone 80. But it is not always (perhaps not even usually) an alignment issue when you get the shakes. It is probably and out of balance wheel...could be that it was put out of balance by a poor alignment though. The thing that you are really looking for is left and right side wearing the same way at the same rate. You also want the inner edge that is wearing to be wearing smoothing and not have any scallops or dips in it. I bet if you were to just change out the tires for new tires (properly road force balanced) that your shakes would go away.

All speculation at this point since I have not driven your car or seen your tires... Report back with more info when you get a chance to try new tires or get an alignment (I'd start with the tires though!)

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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30 Mar 2013 00:33 #14119 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic Wheel alignment
Any of the new Hunter alignment systems installed in garages have no need to lift the tires to attach the alignment heads. The systems have a video display of how to align the car and all the settings are stored in the computer.

Most of the Sears shops have them, many independent shops have them. I just make sure the shop has the new equipment and instructions are on the computer screen. After that, no matter how young the technician is (having never seen a 928), they can do a good alignment.

Just make sure they have equipment that doesn't require raising the wheels to install the alignment head.

Rich
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1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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30 Mar 2013 06:07 #14120 by WyattsRide
Replied by WyattsRide on topic Wheel alignment

If you are running the inside edge of the tire much more than the rest of the tire how in the world could you POSSIBLY wear the rest of the tire at the same rate??? Just think about that for a minute. I'll wait for you...

:)

Rick, just look at a race car running a ton of camber, the outside edge (other than from cornering) will be untouched while the inside edge will be GONE. Just a fact of life. Run ZERO camber if you want to try and wear them evenly and then don't corner to fast or you will then wear the OUTSIDE edge more. On the wheels that steer the car it is impossible to get good handling and even tire wear across the width of the tread. For a brief period there were tires with built in camber... Pretty cool! I bet those wore evenly...

Your car should be rock solid and smooth at 150+ let alone 80. But it is not always (perhaps not even usually) an alignment issue when you get the shakes. It is probably and out of balance wheel...could be that it was put out of balance by a poor alignment though. The thing that you are really looking for is left and right side wearing the same way at the same rate. You also want the inner edge that is wearing to be wearing smoothing and not have any scallops or dips in it. I bet if you were to just change out the tires for new tires (properly road force balanced) that your shakes would go away.

All speculation at this point since I have not driven your car or seen your tires... Report back with more info when you get a chance to try new tires or get an alignment (I'd start with the tires though!)


Thanks James. All of what you posted makes sense. I do have even wear on both front tires. Smooth on the inside tracks for both and no scalloping. I am in the process of 4 new tires and they should be on soon.

After the new tires and balancing I will report back.

Thanks for everyone's advice and help!

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30 Mar 2013 09:21 #14121 by wallyp
Replied by wallyp on topic Wheel alignment
Yes, excessive camber will wear the inside edges.

So will toe-out. Lifting the car before or during alignment will always result in toe-out.

You can check this quickly and easily.
1) Get two long straight things. Boards, pipes, etc.
2) Get two helpers and a tape measure.
3) Pull the car forward with the wheels straight ahead and stop it with the parking brake.
4) Have each helper hold a straight edge against a front wheel, as high as possible without touching the body, pointing forward and level.
5) Measure the distance between the straight edges just forward of the car, and as far from the car as possible.

The straight edges should be slightly closer together at the far ends. If the far ends are farther apart, you have toe-out, and the car needs a good four-wheel alignment.

Wally Plumley
928 Specialists
www.928gt.com

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30 Mar 2013 13:44 #14123 by WyattsRide
Replied by WyattsRide on topic Wheel alignment
Thanks Wally.

Well, I went ahead and had an alignment done at a local Firestone. They have a Hunter Alignment system. Even with all the advice here, I went and scheduled the alignment for this morning. I talked to the manager a couple times about not lifting the car and letting the wheels hang before the alignment (and why).

While sitting in the waiting area I could hear the rumble of my car being pulled into the shop. So of course I wanted to watch. I was amazed as I watched one of the mechanics pulled my car into the non alignment bay. I asked the manager what they were doing with it there? "They are going to lift it to check it over before the alignment". WTF! So, I explained again, why they can't and had him read one of the RL alignment guides I printed out. "Why 928 suspension is different than other cars 4/16/03" - Maybe written by Wally?

After they opened the hood to ogle the engine and comment how nice the car and engine was, they took it to the Hunter bay and didn't lift it.

Here's the results before and after alignment.

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I'll be getting the new tires (Bridgestone Potenza RE-11's) sometime next week. I'll try the high speed test then. :D

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30 Mar 2013 15:15 #14125 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Wheel alignment
I disagree when you say camber will cause tire ware.
Toe wares tires.

Think of how the wheel look on the back of a Volkswagen beetle, yet the tires ware even.
Camber, neg or pos will be hard on the side wall but you should still have all the tire on the road.
As you accelerate the force increases toe out, so if you set it to zero when standing still it will toe out and scrub the inside of the tires at 60 mph.

I must have 7 or 8 deg camber on the front with no tire ware.
This not totally what I wanted, and I am going to correct it, but it is because Carls tubular upper control arms are shorter then stock.

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30 Mar 2013 15:51 #14126 by WyattsRide
Replied by WyattsRide on topic Wheel alignment
Yep. Looks like my Toe (and some Camber and Castor) was out causing my ware.

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30 Mar 2013 20:14 #14136 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Wheel alignment
Brad, I hate to break it to you but there is NO 928 suspension that will allow -6 Deg of camber! NONE! Nada, ZIP...unless you are running something custom the MOST you can get out of an S4 is about -2.4 deg. If you change to earlier suspension arms (upper or lower, I can't remember which) you can get just over -3 deg... Nothing even CLOSE to 6.

Your physics in Canada must be different than our down here in the States because if you push really hard on one side of a tire and hardly at all on the other side of the tire, the side being pushed down, WILL wear more. If you add some toe then it is even worse of course.

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
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06 Apr 2013 04:20 #14263 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Wheel alignment

Brad, I hate to break it to you but there is NO 928 suspension that will allow -6 Deg of camber! NONE! Nada, ZIP...unless you are running something custom the MOST you can get out of an S4 is about -2.4 deg. If you change to earlier suspension arms (upper or lower, I can't remember which) you can get just over -3 deg... Nothing even CLOSE to 6.

Your physics in Canada must be different than our down here in the States because if you push really hard on one side of a tire and hardly at all on the other side of the tire, the side being pushed down, WILL wear more. If you add some toe then it is even worse of course.


LOL you are kind of right James, but the physics is the same

Yes they are custom A-Arms as stated.
They are from Carl,
www.928motorsports.com/parts/upperaarmreplacement.php
they are about an 8th of an inch short and add -1.5 deg to the camber so I guess -3.9 would be closer when added to your spec.
It sure looks like a lot but I couldn't tell you because the car has never been on a rack.

You are kind of right about the camber, but If you go ask a professional wheel alignment shop, the tech will not use camber as a (wear adjustment) You may ware a tiny bit but camber is not a large factor.
dont make me pull out my college books, BTW I enjoyed Physics more then chem class


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle

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06 Apr 2013 08:06 #14264 by wallyp
Replied by wallyp on topic Wheel alignment
For unmodified cars, neither caster nor camber are usually major wear factors. Toe is. For cars with faulty parts or modified parts, camber can become a wear issue - still less than toe, however.

Wally Plumley
928 Specialists
www.928gt.com

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06 Apr 2013 21:33 #14266 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Wheel alignment
These do go hand in hand. If you are running 0 camber and toe in or out you will wear the tire much more evenly than if you are running -X camber and have a toe in or out issue...wear the inside if -X camber and wear the outside of the tire if +X camber.

Brad, with the modified upper arms then you can get much more - camber than stock. I think the most we ever got on my race car was -3.2 or something like that...

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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07 Apr 2013 15:16 #14270 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Wheel alignment

These do go hand in hand. If you are running 0 camber and toe in or out you will wear the tire much more evenly than if you are running -X camber and have a toe in or out issue...wear the inside if -X camber and wear the outside of the tire if +X camber.

Brad, with the modified upper arms then you can get much more - camber than stock. I think the most we ever got on my race car was -3.2 or something like that...


Ya James I was not very happy when I put them on and found out that they were the comp style and short but i can over come that with a custom spacer that i'm working on. I had to get the right material first.

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I tried to find a picture that shows the - camber but it is not that noticeable in the pictures

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07 Apr 2013 20:01 #14271 by Normy1
Replied by Normy1 on topic Wheel alignment
I have had to literally ARGUE with people at Sears about doing my alignments. Sears in Fort Lauderdale where I live has the Hunter DSP-4000 alignment rack that these cars need. I had to FORCE them to put the car on the rack and then NOT lift it when I had my alignment done last. They argued and argued back...

"We know all about these cars!" Sure you do-

In the end, with PROPER RIDE HEIGHT and a Sears alignment job, my car three years later wears all four of its tires evenly. It just wears them out in oh...about 2500 miles is all~

[Perhaps its owner needs to start using the brakes before making 90 degree turns at 45 mph....]

N

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