More problems

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
05 Oct 2010 10:36 #1534 by rluvsporsche
More problems was created by rluvsporsche
I want to give all an update on this issue on MY87. To give you a full understanding when this problem begin after replacing engine mount, power steering line and oil pan gasket on Labor Day weekend. After getting the hatch lock and vacuum lines replace I drove from Chicago, IL to Green Bay, WI for the weekend. I had no issue driving for 3 hrs until I got on the Dyno. My hesitation, hard start and idle problems are back, it shows car running very rich. We diagnose the car all weekend long and still puzzled what we found. We took the spark plugs out appeared bad but don’t appear to be the problem. Check compression it we got 210-215. We decided to replace the spark plugs and MAF since we had a spare. The car started and running good. After a while car started idling irregularly running poor again. We check fuel pressure and spark which are good. When the car won’t run we have spark but injectors we not working. So we changed out with new relays and same hard start. Check and cleaned the ground harness. We decided to swap LH still no improvement. We had spares of EZK we went ahead and replaced the EZK. First EZK no improvement but if we use it on another 87 it works fine. We tried the second EZK it was happy all the issues gone. Now here is the kicker we took the first and my supposedly bad EZK use it on another 87 and no issues what so ever although we did not take the car for a drive just let it idle. We did not have the irregular idling or hard starting that I get on my car. I drove back home using the spare EZK my buddy let me use temporarily until I get a replacement. I stop at rest area and restarted the car; it took 3 cranks before I was on my way. Just to clarify 4 of these 928 buddies helping me out are extremely familiar with 928. Any comments or suggestions before having my EZK rebuilt? Does anyone know of where I can get my EZK rebuilt? Thanks in advance

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Oct 2010 10:49 #1536 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic More problems
Rich Andrade is a 928 OC member www.electronikrepair.com/

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Oct 2010 11:12 #1538 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems
Ohhppp Stan beet me before I finished and his suggestion looks like the answer

Dam...... that post took a while. :confused:

I have no experience with the 928 in this way, but from reading your post I would suspect that
your (bad one) did not act up (in the test car) because the circuit board sat long enough to cool.
Think of the board and 4 screws holding it down. with heat it will want to twist and add a bump from the road to pop and open the circuit.
Maybe not the actual problem that you have but?

All i am saying is i would want to verify and find the problem before i sent your suspect EZK out.
Not knowing what has failed would bug me.
Also (not sure but?) the loaner EZK may need to relearn or be programed to your car??
Like I said I don't know the car yet but as a mechanic I would suspect that this could be your glitches that you are still experiencing.
I hope you find your problem and that someone here is more helpful.

Brad

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.


Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
05 Oct 2010 11:48 #1540 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems
Brad, I agree with you. I’m not sure that getting my EZK rebuilt would resolve the issue because the other EZK we used to test is a good one. At this point it’s the only way I can get my car running. My buddies have shark tuners and told me that we didn’t need to reprogram the EZK because it came from the same model year. I wish there more I can do before spending the $$$. I’ll wait around and see if any one else has other ideas. Thanks Ariel Trajano

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
05 Oct 2010 11:50 #1541 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

Rich Andrade is a 928 OC member www.electronikrepair.com/


Thanks Stan. Side note when I try to "quick post" the fields are grayed out and can type in the box.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Oct 2010 11:58 #1542 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic More problems

Thanks Stan. Side note when I try to "quick post" the fields are grayed out and can type in the box.


Yes, someone else mentioned that, and apparently it is not recommended to enable that as the software can get confused as to which post you are replying to.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Oct 2010 20:52 #1546 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems

I want to give all an update on this issue on MY87. To give you a full understanding when this problem begin after replacing engine mount, power steering line and oil pan gasket on Labor Day weekend. After getting the hatch lock and vacuum lines replace I drove from Chicago, IL to Green Bay, WI for the weekend. I had no issue driving for 3 hrs until I got on the Dyno. My hesitation, hard start and idle problems are back, it shows car running very rich. We diagnose the car all weekend long and still puzzled what we found. We took the spark plugs out appeared bad but don’t appear to be the problem. Check compression it we got 210-215. We decided to replace the spark plugs and MAF since we had a spare. The car started and running good. After a while car started idling irregularly running poor again. We check fuel pressure and spark which are good. When the car won’t run we have spark but injectors we not working. So we changed out with new relays and same hard start. Check and cleaned the ground harness. We decided to swap LH still no improvement. We had spares of EZK we went ahead and replaced the EZK. First EZK no improvement but if we use it on another 87 it works fine. We tried the second EZK it was happy all the issues gone. Now here is the kicker we took the first and my supposedly bad EZK use it on another 87 and no issues what so ever although we did not take the car for a drive just let it idle. We did not have the irregular idling or hard starting that I get on my car. I drove back home using the spare EZK my buddy let me use temporarily until I get a replacement. I stop at rest area and restarted the car; it took 3 cranks before I was on my way. Just to clarify 4 of these 928 buddies helping me out are extremely familiar with 928. Any comments or suggestions before having my EZK rebuilt? Does anyone know of where I can get my EZK rebuilt? Thanks in advance


The part about the EZK is strange. Not a usual 928 area of concern. I have heard of similar situations when switching the LH though. I have seen where one LH would operate two different cars and another LH would work in one, but not both. Weird, huh? :confused:

What was your fuel pressure when you checked it? Also, have you checked your vacuum since replacing the vacuum lines? Your compression figures are unusually high. So high, in fact, that it's either not accurate or there is a problem on one or more neighboring cylinders. Did you document your compression for each cylinder?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 08:22 #1551 by SeanR
Replied by SeanR on topic More problems
My first guess from reading this and the corresponding one AO put up, had me thinking O2 or Temp II. I'm sure it was checked, but how were the wires to the Temp II?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 09:57 #1552 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems
You know guys, this is where a scan tool is invaluable.
I would not even think about working on any electronic issues on any vehicle with out plugging in a scan tool.
You can see high resistance or temp drops in voltage.
You can take a snap shot when it happens and review the history 1 min ~ before and after.
It makes life so much easier.

Now the problem is that I don't know these cars and so I don't know which scan tool porsche used at the dealer,
but I am willing to bet that what ever they used is the best tool for the job.
This is why I asked the questions about the shark tuner and what the 928 OC uses.
I am willing to buy what ever porsche used If i can find an old one, just to work on my car, unless a more modern/better scanner is available.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 09:59 #1553 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic More problems

You know guys, this is where a scan tool is invaluable.
I would not even think about working on any electronic issues on any vehicle with out plugging in a scan tool.
You can see high resistance or temp drops in voltage.
You can take a snap shot when it happens and review the history 1 min ~ before and after.
It makes life so much easier.

Now the problem is that I don't know these cars and so I don't know which scan tool porsche used at the dealer,
but I am willing to bet that what ever they used is the best tool for the job.
This is why I asked the questions about the shark tuner and what the 928 OC uses.
I am willing to buy what ever porsche used If i can find an old one, just to work on my car, unless a more modern/better scanner is available.


I don't know about finding an old one, it is called the Porsche Hammer. I have one on loan right now. Just keep in mind it can only provide information that these old sensors were designed to provide.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 10:01 #1554 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems
So in your opinion, is there one out there that provides the same and more. Is that what the shark tuner dose?

Some times paying for a scan at the dealer is worth the money and saves you from spending more on trial and error.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 10:04 #1555 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic More problems
I haven't used it, so don't know. I would anticipate it is better or cheaper, or both, otherwise it wouldn't need to exist :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 10:05 #1556 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic More problems
I have only dabbled with the 928 Diag tool. It wasn't willing to communicate with my GT. It had a windows interface, so seemed like an improvement. I think the newer version of that is better as well.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 10:08 #1557 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems

I haven't used it, so don't know. I would anticipate it is better or cheaper, or both, otherwise it wouldn't need to exist :)


Thats why he is the prezz, because he is so smart. ;)

Sorry rluvsporsche, we are just trying to hash out the best way to help you.
If someone (member) lives close by with a scanner or that can get access to one, it may be the quickest, cheapest, fix.

You know it won't be me unless you move a few thousand miles north. :rolleyes:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
06 Oct 2010 14:50 #1565 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

The part about the EZK is strange. Not a usual 928 area of concern. I have heard of similar situations when switching the LH though. I have seen where one LH would operate two different cars and another LH would work in one, but not both. Weird, huh? :confused:

What was your fuel pressure when you checked it? Also, have you checked your vacuum since replacing the vacuum lines? Your compression figures are unusually high. So high, in fact, that it's either not accurate or there is a problem on one or more neighboring cylinders. Did you document your compression for each cylinder?


It’s definitely weird. The guys helping me out said the same thing that EZK is not common problems and they don’t know anyone who has EZK failure. We put a fuel pressure gauge permanently at the end of the rail it reads 45-55 at idle and when car off. Yes the vacuum lines are good. This is what we came up with cyl 1-8, 210,210,210,210,210,213,210,210 with hot engine. I’m no expert and can find in my manual the right specs but all 4 928 buddies said they are good numbers.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
06 Oct 2010 14:52 #1566 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

My first guess from reading this and the corresponding one AO put up, had me thinking O2 or Temp II. I'm sure it was checked, but how were the wires to the Temp II?


We tested the car using shark tuner with 02 sensor connected ro exhaust. I also check the Temp 2 it witin specs. :confused:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
06 Oct 2010 15:03 #1567 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

Thats why he is the prezz, because he is so smart. ;)

Sorry rluvsporsche, we are just trying to hash out the best way to help you.
If someone (member) lives close by with a scanner or that can get access to one, it may be the quickest, cheapest, fix.

You know it won't be me unless you move a few thousand miles north. :rolleyes:


No problem, for the past few days I've been going through my factory repair manual and unfortunately my 87 does not support scanner of any sort. Also looking for grounds to check because the guys think it might be a bad ground so I found 97-01 and 97-02 all the ground points on the car. I'm no mechanic so what's good ground when using an OHM meter?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 16:27 #1568 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems

We tested the car using shark tuner with 02 sensor connected ro exhaust. I also check the Temp 2 it witin specs. :confused:


How did you test the temp II? It is a thermistor meaning that its resistance changes according to temperature. Did you check it cold? What was the exact temperature when you checked it and what was the resistance? Also, did you check it at a different temperature range? The more details you share, the more effective we can be helping you. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Oct 2010 16:40 #1569 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems
Also, check your vacuum with a gauge. The lines may appear fine, but you can't KNOW if your vacuum is fine without confirming it with a gauge. Won't take you long and it may very well isolate the problem.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
06 Oct 2010 19:16 #1571 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

How did you test the temp II? It is a thermistor meaning that its resistance changes according to temperature. Did you check it cold? What was the exact temperature when you checked it and what was the resistance? Also, did you check it at a different temperature range? The more details you share, the more effective we can be helping you. :)


Using a Fluke 62 Mini Infrared Thermometer. My recollection back labor day weekend temp was 79 F @ 2.7 K OHM with engin cold

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
06 Oct 2010 19:17 #1572 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

Also, check your vacuum with a gauge. The lines may appear fine, but you can't KNOW if your vacuum is fine without confirming it with a gauge. Won't take you long and it may very well isolate the problem.


Agree, I'll try to check it again.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Oct 2010 10:17 #1578 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems
the book says less then .1 is a good connection but with modern electronics its .03 and no more then .05 at which point i still check and clean

here is a PDF on connections vs temp with different metals

www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_3/vol3-3.pdf

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
07 Oct 2010 13:19 #1590 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

the book says less then .1 is a good connection but with modern electronics its .03 and no more then .05 at which point i still check and clean

This is very helpful, thanks

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
10 Nov 2010 12:29 #1943 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems
Special thanks to Richard Andrade his been very helpful.

I wanted to give a follow up. I had a shop do smoke test to find any intake leak. It appears the leak's coming out from the MAF air guide cowl rubber. We did not see any other leaks although the tech said it's difficult to be 100% certain that there were no other other with the intake in place. He suggested that the intake be remove and parts be replace. He also pointed out my hard start problem. He notice that the starter had a strange sound when cranking and it took three cranks to get my car running. He thinks it's the starter. I told him that I just replaced the start about month ago and the strange sound was coming from the missing teeth on the ring gear. Then he explained that this is the cause for my hard starting because the crank sensor did not get signal from the missing teeth on the ring gear which it looks for so that computer knows when to apply spark and fuel during starting.
His statement do make sense but I'm not a mechanic so not sure if that's true.

Should I replace only the MAF rubber cowl or just do the whole intake? I would probably have someone do the job I'm definitely worried that I might mess things up. Although I have done most of the maintenance on my car i.e.... TB, suspensions refresh and other repairs. If I leave the starter ring gear for now until the next clutch job what's the worst case scenario?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Nov 2010 14:17 #1978 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems
There isn't anything more challenging in doing an intake refresh than there is doing a timing belt job. If you've done the timing belt then you're more than qualified to do tackle this one yourself as well.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Nov 2010 14:47 #1980 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems
The ring gear teeth are not the same as the reluctor teeth unless your standard is different then my auto 89.

In the picteure below of my ring gear and reluctor gear, you can see the heavyer teeth at the bottom left in behind the ring gear

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.


Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Nov 2010 15:02 #1983 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems

The ring gear teeth are not the same as the reluctor teeth unless your standard is different then my auto 89.

In the picteure below of my ring gear and reluctor gear, you can see the heavyer teeth at the bottom left in behind the ring gear

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.


Yes, it's the same for standard 928s. The Hall sensor would be unaffected by a worn starter ring. You are correct.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Nov 2010 15:20 #1984 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems
You know, I was just thinking how much fun it would be to right something on that plate for the next guy to see. Then I was thinking that only I work on my car BUT! anyone that takes there car in sure could have fun. Like a small bag of flour tucked up under the dash, he he he

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Nov 2010 15:40 #1986 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems
Never even considered it but that is genius! Actually, now that I think about it... When I bought a used car once, the PO left his old license plate on it. Probably not too smart. Anyway, when I got mine in and decided to swap them out, a sheet of notebook paper fell to the ground when I removed the old plate. I picked it up and read what was inside. It was an amateur poem or song of some sort about sexual violence. Seemed like the author found it euphoric. Very creepy.

The vehicle was a Mustang GT BTW. :p

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Nov 2010 19:39 #1993 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems

Never even considered it but that is genius! Actually, now that I think about it... When I bought a used car once, the PO left his old license plate on it. Probably not too smart. Anyway, when I got mine in and decided to swap them out, a sheet of notebook paper fell to the ground when I removed the old plate. I picked it up and read what was inside. It was an amateur poem or song of some sort about sexual violence. Seemed like the author found it euphoric. Very creepy.

The vehicle was a Mustang GT BTW. :p



Oh great, now ILL be known as the underneath guy.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
14 Nov 2010 12:06 #2004 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

There isn't anything more challenging in doing an intake refresh than there is doing a timing belt job. If you've done the timing belt then you're more than qualified to do tackle this one yourself as well.


Are there special tools required to do this job?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • rluvsporsche
  • rluvsporsche's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member
More
14 Nov 2010 12:11 #2005 by rluvsporsche
Replied by rluvsporsche on topic More problems

Yes, it's the same for standard 928s. The Hall sensor would be unaffected by a worn starter ring. You are correct.


So the diagnostic that the tech mentioned about hard starting with missing teeth is wrong? What else could be causing the hard start? Why does it take 3 or more cranks before it finally starts?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
14 Nov 2010 13:04 #2006 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic More problems

So the diagnostic that the tech mentioned about hard starting with missing teeth is wrong? What else could be causing the hard start? Why does it take 3 or more cranks before it finally starts?


Yes he is wrong because he dose not know that this system is different then others.

1.-Dose it make a loud grind noise when it doesn't start or dose it crank
normal?

If it cranks normal and dose not start, then either timing or fuel mixture is out.

2.-Did this problem occur after any repairs or did it get worse over time.

Information is the most important thing to properly diagnose your car.

3.-Also what is the mileage.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
14 Nov 2010 13:19 #2008 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic More problems

So the diagnostic that the tech mentioned about hard starting with missing teeth is wrong? What else could be causing the hard start? Why does it take 3 or more cranks before it finally starts?


As Brad pointed out, the air/fuel mixture can cause hard starting. It may not be entirely responsible for your hard starting, but it is definitely contributing since you have known intake leaks. The hard starting issues will probably be resolved once you correct the intake leak(s). No special tools are required for doing the intake refresh.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • the flying scotsman
  • the flying scotsman's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
More
25 Dec 2010 12:22 #2459 by the flying scotsman
Replied by the flying scotsman on topic More problems
The intake has many rubber components which given the amount of work to R&R should be all replaced when doing the refresh project. Dwayne has, as are all his write ups, an excellent pictoral explanation of the intake work in his garage website.

There are only a few diag. tools that can be used on the 928. They connect through the diag port with a cable which differs between the '89 model year. Porsche made their own tool referred to as the Hammer because of its shape, John Speake has an interpetation known as the spanner and Theo/Paul have their version which is the most up to date providing the most information and usage on many Porsche models. I have Theos diag. system and used on many 928s.........not only does it activate specific sensors it analyses the engine management systems with engine running.

The flywheel that the starter engages is part of the ring gear which triggers the Crank Position Sensor.

The Hall Sensor previously mentioned is triggered by the exhaust cam of the 1-4 bank of cylinders.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: Rich928mm928billvvOC

Don't have an account yet? Register Now!