Odd starting problem

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03 Apr 2011 17:26 #4274 by mm928
Odd starting problem was created by mm928
Today when I came out of Church to drive home, my 83 would turn over like 2 times (rrrrr-rrrrr) then stop abruptly. It sounded like it normally does when starting (same speed, strength etc.) but it immediately stops after a couple of cranks.

I tried it a say 3-4 times. Always just a couple of turnovers then immediate stop. Then I went to the back and took all my guitar equipment out of the back, wiggled the battery ground strap a little, tried it again, started like normal. Ok maybe something loose etc.

Later that day, I rinsed off the car (pulled out of the garage first, no issue starting) and afterwards took it for a spirited short drive to dry it off. Came back and cleaned the windows, then tried to put it back into the garage and bingo! Exactly the same thing happened. A couple of spirited turns then an immediate stop.

Turned it off, tried it again...started right up no issue.

I have looked around here and RL but don't really see the same symptoms. I have not tested anything yet. Although it seems as though the volts were not particularly high today. Normally, just below 13 is very good, but sometimes it hovers near 12.3-5 more often than not. So I know I need to check some things. I am not up on electrical troubleshooting though so I am just wondering if this strikes a bell with anyone.

I would suspect to test the volts on the battery posts first and the ground strap and go on from there including the involved relays and fuses, then finally to the solenoid, starter switch etc. as needed. I found a couple of articles about some of those things so I will start there.

Will let you know if I find out anything. I am suspecting electrical gremlins. :(

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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03 Apr 2011 18:20 #4275 by srshaw3
Replied by srshaw3 on topic Odd starting problem
Could just be a loose ground or weak battery, when you get to the end of a compression stroke, the resistance is just too much.

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03 Apr 2011 22:39 #4278 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic Odd starting problem
It sounds like you had plenty of battery each time. No clicking noises???

Sounds more along the lines of a tired, old starter motor on its last leg to me.

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04 Apr 2011 00:41 #4280 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Odd starting problem
Tired starter motor or more than likely a corroded ground strap and or other corroded ground points. Clean all grounds and replace the ground strap and I bet your problems disappear.

Thankfully when I came out of church this AM with all my guitar gear I didn't have that problem! Hope I never do, but frankly it is only a matter of time!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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04 Apr 2011 08:02 #4284 by SeanR
Replied by SeanR on topic Odd starting problem
Thinking the same as James.

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04 Apr 2011 15:19 #4285 by Kenbooze
Replied by Kenbooze on topic Odd starting problem
My 928 S4 has just decided that it wont start unless I pump the throttle like a maniac any Ideas?
Just to baffle me even more doing 30mph yesterday and lost all power it just decided to cut out are these 2 things connected.
Stumped!

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04 Apr 2011 17:30 #4288 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Thanks Guys, it kind of confirms what I am thinking.
My co-worker who is also my part-time mechanic is thinking the same. We are going to check a few readings (and I am finally going to buy myself a multi-meter this weekend :) and see if it gets any worse. I have a second car for a few months while I work out these kind of things.

While we are at it we are going to upgrade the battery cable to size 0 and put in a deep cycle battery and replace the spark plug wires along with checking the grounds. He also suspects the alternator belt might be loose since the alternator is a new 90 amp Bosch model, not stock, and it also has a new belt. Put on when in November. He sold me the car in Dec. I seem to be too close to 12 on the alt gauge a lot of times and I think it should be better. It might be off so when we take off the POD to add aluminum gauge rings, we will try to calibrate it.

Hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks....I need to be in shape by SITM in June!

Later

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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04 Apr 2011 17:31 #4289 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Hey Ken,
my guess is yes even though it is hard to tell without more info.

Please put your model/year of the car in your signature so that no one needs to ask in the future.

My guess is that a hose split and it is sucking air.
The reason it seems to help by pumping the accelerator is not the pumping action it is because you are advancing the throttle position sensor so that the engine gets enough fuel to start.

remove the air filter housing and with a light and a mirror look around inside/under the intake and check the hoses for cracks.

You may also have a different problem that it could be fuel or ignition.

Try to find more details and start a separate thread in the general or in your profile area.

Brad

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18 Apr 2011 21:55 #4498 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Hi guys - looks like it is the ignition switch. Checking around I found a few posts about leaving the key all the way over then doing a little circular motion and the starter will catch. If so then it is the ignition switch. Got it to do it yesterday. Already have a starter coming, so I added an ignition switch and will do that part first. Looks like a bad ignition switch cause multiple issues or make it look like other issues.

While we are at it - here is what we will do electrically:
1 - 1/0 gauge Ultra-flex battery cable - replace original along with new connectors of course. This is more flexible because it is thin stranded copper and the sheathing is also more flexible. (from weldingsupply.com)
2 - replace cable from starter to alternator with new 4 gauge cable and connectors
3 - Replace ignition switch of course, and while we are at it, clean the connections we come across in the POD and elsewhere with Deoxit
4 - Replace fuel sending unit
5 - Replace Wal-mart battery with Deep Cycle Optima.
6 - Replace the starter if needed.
7 - Check electrical readings of course, during and after

The alternator is a 90 amp Bosch and is new last December.

then lets see how things look after that !

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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18 Apr 2011 22:14 #4504 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Great research and find. I hope the switch replacement goes ok.

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19 Apr 2011 16:06 #4521 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic Odd starting problem
FWIW, I think the easiest access way to remove/replace the ignition switch is by removing the center console and pod cover. Also, be careful not to remove the wires from the plug or you will need the schematic in order to get all the wires assigned back to their correct positions.

Replacing the starter in these cars can be tricky. You may have to loosen the sway bar to get enough clearance for removing/replacing it.

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19 Apr 2011 16:22 #4522 by Kiln_Red
Replied by Kiln_Red on topic Odd starting problem

My 928 S4 has just decided that it wont start unless I pump the throttle like a maniac any Ideas?
Just to baffle me even more doing 30mph yesterday and lost all power it just decided to cut out are these 2 things connected.
Stumped!


In the future, please begin your own thread when your post doesn't concern the original post and/or you're seeking your own advice. Maybe you just need to familiarize yourself with the forum software more. That said, welcome aboard! :)

Your running issues could be sourced to any number of problems. However, the first most likely culprit is intake vacuum. The old vacuum lines are probably beginning to split causing the intake to suck in un-metered air that is tipping the delicate air/fuel balance your engine needs to perform. Start by checking the engine vacuum with a vacuum gauge. They're readily available at every local parts store. Your vacuum should be steady, at idle, when you check it. Report back your findings, in a new thread :D, and we'll assist from there.

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19 Apr 2011 21:47 #4527 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Thanks KilnRed for the tip! I think I might put tape on them to hold them in place to preserve the order.....before I start removing...:D...that would be a pain wouldn't it!!

Will let you know how it all goes, the parts are coming in this week or maybe 1st part of next. I will report back in a couple of weeks.

I miss driving my Carcharodon carcharias
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_white_shark_south_africa.jpg

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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19 Apr 2011 23:12 #4528 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Odd starting problem
Michael,

I think your problem is the ground strap... Those things corrode on the inside of the plastic wrap around them and it is completely invisible unless you cut one apart... I'd certainly START with that! Has to be the cheapest easiest thing in the world to change out! Ok, maybe not the cheapest but I KNOW it is the easiest because it is something that I can actually do!

I'd say Ken's problem is likely an ignition switch issue...but not yours.

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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20 Apr 2011 19:47 #4533 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Thanks for that as well. That will certainly be first on the list then - stay tuned.....I don't think mine is coated at all though so I will check the whole thing and clean the termination connection as well.

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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02 May 2011 13:41 #4673 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Well so far - no good... :( But it is not all bad, maybe.

So far - a fun thing happened....after sitting in the sun for a day at my friend/mechanics house, I just decided to try the Sun roof.....worked like it had never had a bad day in its life!!!! What's up with that? Funny huh. I did not close it so he could take a look inside first. It still had some grease on the rails. I was thinking the paint job or something was not letting it move until the heat got to it....oh well, more on that later.

replaced the ignition switch - problem persisted
replaced the starter - now it is worse....we can hear the piston slingin back into the new starter but no turning at all.
I suspect as James had mentioned, an electrical/ground issue.
We were going to replace the battery and starter/alternator cables anyway, so that is on the plate now. Also, we had pulled the POD and tried this out so I don't feel like that was probably a good way to test it with all those wires hanging around.
Anyway I spray painted the black portion of the gauge cluster and added some aluminum rings from Jaeger around each gauge...looks pretty sharp. I will post a pic of that soon.

It is not convenient to my house, about 40+ miles away, so my friend is working on it alone this week. More news when I get it. He has the fine write up from Wally P on starting issues and a good multi-meter, so I feel confident he can sniff it out in a couple of days.

Oh yeah - I was going to mount a plastic dash cover from Coverlay...did not fit, almost a 2 inch gap in the middle....if they won't take it back I might try to adjust it....or resell to someone with the dash already out. Not sure if we are going to try and remove the dash or not, at least not right now. will research alternatives, maybe try a simple patch kit to hold me over.

Attached files [img]media/attachments/4812=586-IMG_0127.jpg[/img]

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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02 May 2011 14:54 #4677 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Good luck Mike and let us know how it turns out. Cheers

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14 May 2011 16:13 #4799 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Ok so long story short - I am back on the road and it is running the best it ever has.
Problems found (- James - you were close, but in the wrong place). The ground on the drivers side under the Pod was bad. Plus we found that there was a loose or all the way off wire in the console. I had not noticed that I saw NO lights when I turned they key (did not know any better since I had never seen them) HA. Now it lights up like a Christmas tree...very cool.

One side note, now that my lights work, I had a Brake PR and flashing exclamation point! So I disconnected/reconnected the battery ground to clear it and voila! NO START!!!! Yep.....I was BUMMED as I had not had the car for about 2-3 weeks. Luckily my son-in-law was over and he offered to get his jack. We got under the car and traced all the new replaced wiring to a point from the new starter to the alternator. It was real dirty and gummed up so we decided to clean it up using vairous small instruments and some De-Oxit spray. We did not take them off....couldn't tell well how to do it.
ANYWAY - varoommmmm started right up. So there is another good lesson. I think I need to go ahead and change oil again and have the oil pan dropped and put a new silicone gasket on and some blue Threadlocker as well. The current drips add to the muck around this connection.
Oh yeah - the Brake PR cleared and has not returned. Probably was from a long time ago that I could not see because of the dash light issue.

SO here is what we did:
- Upgraded to 1/0 Ultra-flex battery cable from battery to the starter
- Installed a new Optima Yellow top deep cycle battery
- Installed a new ignition switch
- Installed a new starter (alternator is already new, a Bosch 90)
- Replaced engine ground strap
- Cleaned 4 ground points, 3 in front and the one on the rear passenger side
- While the Pod was off I installed the aluminum rings around the gauges from Jaeger....awesome upgrade!...but a pain of course.
- Fixed the loose wiring in the POD (original gas gauge now works perfectly!)
- I wanted to replace the wire from the starter to the Alt w 4 gauge, but my guy did not have the time to do it this time. Will do that later at my leisure.
- Install new spark plug wires
- Replaced steering wheel with a new Momo - looks real nice

I probably did not need either the starter or ignition switch or both, but they were not that much and now I know what is new and what is not, starting at about 100,000 miles. I have a nice electrical system at the source. meter reads 12.6 and the battery and 12.6 at the starter. And the Dash seems to functioning like new.

Will post some pics of the dash and steering wheel upgrade pretty soon....busy weekend. I did very little of the above, my friend/mechanic did it, let's just say I am the foreman....:)

regards,
MM

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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16 May 2011 17:19 #4825 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Odd starting problem
New oil pan gasket is BIG, BIG JOB! Not for the faint of heart and read about it MANY TIMES before you try to jump in to that one!

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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19 May 2011 10:55 #4859 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Yeah James - that is what I hear and read.... :(
Will try and get some feedback at SITM and then get some quotes. Believe me, I would not be doing it.....and I know I will pay for that statement. I have a couple of local options that so far have been reasonable with the minor stuff like 69.00 for a correctly done 4 wheel alignment without raising the car ( they have a pit ). So we will see... but I think it needs to be done. Especially to help identify what else is slowly dripping.

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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26 May 2011 21:09 #4957 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Looks like the final (I hope) piece of the puzzle has been identified!
I have uploaded a pic of the offender. Please look at the center of the picture and specifically at the rubber jacketed connector on the left. It is coming out of the smaller orange tube along with another wire.

Whatever this connector is will stop your Shark from starting! And it will seem like you are not getting enough juice to turn the starter. You will hear your starter disengage but nothing else will happen.

I pulled off the jacket and there is a spade connector in the jacket-side. There is a male spade held on to the post by a washer and nut. It was loose as a goose. I tightened it pretty good then put the connector jacket back on and VAROOOM...I was back in business. As you can see it is right next to the oil drain plug. I am guessing it somehow completes the circuit from the starter to the alternator maybe?

My expert friends - Can anyone identify what this particular connection is? Didn't seem to see it in the workshop books. I did not thoroughly clean both sides yet, but it is better than it was and I will schedule that for an afternoon soon.

* UPDATE*
After a couple of no-starts and comments from mechanics, looks like this is a connection to the oil sending unit. It goes in one side and out the other. No oil sensed = no start maybe. But once that was fixed, it still happened. Looks like now it may be either a relay or the 14 pin connector on the passenger side near the front, specifically the yellow wire that goes to the starter. (thanks Wally P!)

Attached files [img]media/attachments/5097=585-IMG_0130-2.jpg[/img]

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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26 May 2011 21:54 #4959 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Is that wire on the back of the alternator?

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27 May 2011 06:51 #4963 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
That is what I am thinking Brad. I believe the alternator is forward of that but I am not sure what the cylindrical thing is these 2 wires are attached to. I also sent the pic to my friend that works on it from time to time. Let's see if anyone else can identify. I think it is the alternator but what this particular wire is doing am I am not sure.

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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06 Jun 2011 16:18 #5053 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Minor update - based on how it acted when I took it to SITM (see the off to SITM post under Good Morning) it is starting to sound like either a relay or fuse or maybe the yellow wire in Wally Ps No start troubleshooting doc. (Thanks Wally!)

By the way it stopped after I washed it today (after I went to town in it), let it sit and it started again, pulled it in and started checking per the no start guide.

Replaced Fuse 13 with a new one (fuel pump and others). I did not have a spare relay, I am going to order some tonight. So I used D-oxit and a pencil to clean the contacts on relay XiV - Starter-auto and relay XVII - fuel pump. Both were a little dirty starting to blacken/darken up near the middle and tops of the spades, but not too bad I guess, not sure. I did not see that bubbly kind of corrosion. Made sure it still started after my work :D and left it there for now. I will drive it tonight and just monitor the situation. If it still appears random I will replace the relays and check the yellow wire in Wally's guide. I can't really see how to open the box to the
fourteen-pin connector on the right front fender. I don't want to break it. Will have to do some research.

M

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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06 Jun 2011 19:32 #5058 by neilh
Replied by neilh on topic Odd starting problem

I can't really see how to open the box to the
fourteen-pin connector on the right front fender. I don't want to break it. Will have to do some research.

M


The cover slides off towards the rear of the car - disconnect the battery, pull the plug out carefully, and then slide the cover back. Watch out, the pins will jump out if you are not careful. I just did a complete rebuild of that 14 pin ( actually less wires) harness. check out this link for all the details.
forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-928-tech...in-wire-harness.html

Neil

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07 Jun 2011 11:01 #5061 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Thanks Neil - you are the man, that's what I like about this forum

Looks like I have something to do this weekend!

James - good point about no shots of Jeannie - my iPhone is full of 928s - not one Jeannie shot!

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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08 Jun 2011 14:07 #5070 by pcar928fan
Replied by pcar928fan on topic Odd starting problem
^^^^^^
What is that about?! I have seen a whole lot of wiener (and I am not talking about Anthony Wiener either) in the pics and a bunch of 928's but narry one SUPER HOT GIRL like the lovely Jeannie! I guess I'll have to keep at it with my hot 928 babes! ;)

James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black

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09 Jun 2011 21:57 #5079 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Tuff Life James ;) Ha

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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09 Jun 2011 22:22 #5080 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Mike dose your car crank over hard and low or dose it crank over fast like a normal car?

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12 Jun 2011 21:36 #5115 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Hhhhhmmm Brad, I would say probably like normal really. About 1 full second before it catches and seems to have good speed on the revolutions. When it did not start,,,,absolutely nothing, with the exception of hearing the starter impeller pull back from the engine. No other clicking or attempted motor spinning or buzzing or winding or ...you get the point.

1/2 of my new relays just got here from Pelican. As soon as I get my Fuel Pump relay I will put about 5 new ones in (relays that might strand me :)) along with some fuses.

The no-start has not happened since I cleaned the current 2 fuses I described earlier after I got back from SITM.

Right now my Central Warning Brake Pressure light finally comes on every time I touch the brakes instead of about every 4-500 miles. So I think one of my brake sensor switches on the bottom of the MC has finally died. I am going to have someone look at that for me this week, then change the relays/fuses, then start looking at getting the A/C working. Center vent is blowing hot air now so I think I now have the heater valve/hose issue. The Cruise control does not work at all now so I think the vacuum is screwed up with that tee valve. At least according to the threads I have seen on both issues.

More as I know it - right now I need to verify if the new relays fix the start issue, if not I am going to look to the 14 pin connector on the passenger side and the yellow wire that connects to the starter (thanks Wally P)

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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02 Jul 2011 18:45 #5373 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Ok - so the whole time since SITM,,,,no starting issue (replaced 3 relays and fixed Oil sending wire).

Today though, a no start after about a 45 min drive in the heat. We know a lot has been fixed or replaced, so we are now at the 14 pin connector near the front on the passenger side. Pulled off the cover, cleaned it up and put it back. Car started right up!

Later (in for Vac leaks in HVAC) it would not start again (we had started it a couple of times whie testing w. no issues).

Banged on the 14 pin connector box.....Started right up! So it looks like this may be the last piece of the VERY intermittent puzzle. (I hope) :)

I will take the cover off and carefully, one by one, pull each out and clean and get them to fit tighter in the round holes. I think that might be it. If not it might be the yellow wire in that connector that runs to the starter.

Stay tuned.....this is getting to be a LONG post... oh yeah BTW, we found 2 bad vacuum solenoids. Got 6 coming from 9Source on eBay for 11.00 each! We know how to test them, so we can choose the best of what we have vs the used ones from them. And YES I have A/C blowing now!!!! We just removed power from the bad solenoids until the others come in the mail.

Sayanara

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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03 Jul 2011 11:26 #5388 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Way to go. looks like you are confident that you found the no-start this time.

I hate fixing things when I am not sure and I am sure you did as well. That must have been great to tap on the 14 pin and have it fire up.

you could even see if new is available and if not, go buy some GM weather pack connectors and make your own.

Congrats

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03 Jul 2011 22:06 #5402 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Working on it tomorrow while the wife is on vacation! Happened again today, took some De-oxit sprayed in there to get it to fire up. Might have to order a new housing as well, since I cracked an end off removing the cover today.

More later as it progresses.....

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
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04 Jul 2011 15:05 #5410 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Update on the 14 pin connector work -

Turns out we had been pulling the top off of the male connector, I used a different tool and it happened to grab the gap between the male and female parts and it came right apart!

I cleaned the male connectors with a wire brush and de-oxit. Then I used a small knife tip to gently scrape the female holes, then sprayed de-oxit in there as well. Took a couple of pics the cleaned both up and put them back together. You do have to be careful if you pull the female (bottom part) off the anchor at the bottom to make it easier to work on, because when you do you expose the top of the connectors and they will possibly just fall out before you can get a pic snapped. So put your finger under it as you slide it out, then put a piece of painters tape on it to keep them in place while you clean the other part etc. It is a little trickier putting it back on the anchor but can be done, just take your time.

The car started before I did the work and after, a couple of times. So if it continues to have an intermittent no-start, it might be a bad place in the wire or the solder joint etc. and I will have to dig deeper.

2 pics below - 1 is the bottom of the female bottom section (did that sound dirty? :) and the other shows the top male 1/2 as well to the left, you can just see the ends of the connectors at the bottom. I did crack the end off of the male but I super-glued it back, seemed to fit ok and hold.

Attached files [img]media/attachments/5550=638-IMG_0002.jpg[/img] [img]media/attachments/5550=640-IMG_0004.jpg[/img]

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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27 Jul 2011 12:26 #5721 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
The no start happened at the shop this past week while one of my mechs was replacing vacuum solenoids. He let it sit and it started up. So I am going to look at replacing the upper and lower 14 pin housing next. Although he couldn't see why we could not connect the wires directly. He thinks it is only there to modularize the wiring during the factory build. Hadn't thought of it that way. Interesting idea though.

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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27 Jul 2011 13:52 #5722 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Mike, the problem with a perminate connection at the 14 pin is the harness needs to come apart and laid out of the way when the enegine is removed. I think that even doing a TB or WP would be a pain if you could not move that harness of to the side.

It goes over the right/passenger timing cover, under the pass head, in front of the engine under the thermostat, through the drivers TB cover and down to the alternator.

Here it is resting on the balencer and running through the drivers side Timing belt cover

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01 Aug 2011 11:44 #5766 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
thanks Brad - makes sense to keep it that way - I agree. I am going to order the two replacement housings and just re-do them. Then go from there.

Thanks for the Pic.

As a side note - I finaly finished fixing the A/C, we found a leak on my purple line (the extra aux cool/heat liine used only in earlier models) so I go to it this weekend and capped the purple line off. The center vent started working (the Purple is a shared vac line with the Orange, so if one fails the other is affected) and I had crispy cool air after about a minute ot two.! Yeah.

Now to finish the starting issue and I can resume work on just upgrades!

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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01 Aug 2011 12:07 #5767 by 928mac
Replied by 928mac on topic Odd starting problem
Wish you luck on the starting issue even though I think you have found the problem.

The purple line can be uncapped and fixed at a later time. Good repair for now.

Brad

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08 Aug 2011 09:37 #5813 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
Definitely heat related too. With the oppresive (105+ = how it feels temp) here in Va recently, the garage is really humid and hot. Once the engine sits for about an hour...it is too hot to start. out in the air below say 95 degrees, seems start fine after it sits a while ( I do drive it to work when I can)

So I found a 75c thermostat at 928 Spec....for 25.00! I ordered that (I have the original t-stat in the car, was never changed out) along with a new male 14 pin connector. My buddy will change them both out while I am out on vacation in Myrtle Beach starting this weekend.

Will let you know how that goes in a a couple of weeks!

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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07 Oct 2011 21:51 #6406 by mm928
Replied by mm928 on topic Odd starting problem
So here is what we did to fix it, and after 2 weeks, no recurrence.

1 - pulled the wiring harness, fixed bad spots and ran a new separate yellow cable from the 14 pin connector to the starter

2 - replace the thermo with a 75 degree centigrade one and a new 75c for the front cooling fan.

No starting issues and no heat-sinking anymore. The engine runs right in the middle, sometimes a little above (after the Fun Run at the Frenzy for example) or a little below with very mild driving.

Car starts right up no matter how long it does or does not sit. Aslo, a side benefit, the alternator gauge is showing another 1.0, around 13.7 now and even with all lights on, and fogs and stereo and A/C does not go below 12 and never falters at idle.....needless to say this is a big move forward for me on multiple fronts.
thanks to everyone for the great advice!!!!!

Next up - the Brake pressure light came back, since I have replaced the solenoids under the master cylinder and because the light comes on after a while and not when I hit the brakes necessarily, I am leaning towards vacuum assist, also the A/C stopped being cold and cruise control doesn't work right. Both were functioning. Will let you know how that works out!

1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -

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